TMGP Ep 39 with elite powerlifter turned IFBB pro bodybuilder and fitness coach Charly Jeoung

Oh, another white boy with a. Podcast pronouns. Jim Bro, another white boy with a podcast. Do you want to see the video? It went viral. Hi, games gurus, and welcome to TMGP, the Muscle Growth Podcast episode 39. I'm your host Roscoe, and today we're welcoming Charlie Jung onto the show. Charlie is a stand out figure in the strength sports community, making his mark as an elite powerlifter turned NPC, super heavyweight bodybuilder and Co founder of Team Full Run. With a decade long background in powerlifting boasting a best total of 1925 lbs. At 245 lbs. Charlie's journey took a pivotal turn after repeated injuries led him to seek new challenges in bodybuilding. His transition was marked not just by a shift in training focus from pure strength to hypertrophy and aesthetics, but also by an impressive competitive debut. In May 2021, Charlie won the overall at his first bodybuilding show, immediately qualifying for the national stage. Later that year, he made a splash at NPC Nationals, earning a spot in the highly competitive first call outs and finishing top 10, a remarkable achievement for a newcomer. Charlie is recognized for his analytical approach to training, emphasizing individualized technique and mind muscle connection, and for his relentless drive to improve, particularly in building his back and overall stage presence. As he continues to develop as a bodybuilder, Charlie's story stands out for his ability to blend the discipline of powerlifting with the artistry of bodybuilding, inspiring both lifters and fans across the fitness world. In this episode, we dive into the importance of critical thinking in the fitness space, the risks of blindly following trending sports science, and why grounding your training in evidence and reason is more vital than ever. In today's episode, we dive into a wide range of insights. Some of the topics include why sports science research does not hold up like in other scientific fields, the importance of anecdotal evidence, the origins of the name Charlie Banks for his Instagram handle, Charlie's transition from powerlifting to bodybuilding, sustainable training, how to breakthrough plateaus, doing what you can, and what. Works for you. How many athletes and powerlifters and bodybuilders have regular lives and regular jobs too and it's purely just a hobby? More muscle equating to more strength for most people. The gym not being the same as therapy. PEDs in professional bodybuilding. Harm reduction practices. Top training principles like volume versus intensity. The optimal training, fast especially with influencers and so much more. Get ready for a truly informative episode. Quick shameless self plug. I'm uploading more consistently on reps with Roscoe on YouTube, so check that out for some epic fitness edutainment content. A little disclaimer, this show does not contain medical advice. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the Muscle Growth Podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect my beliefs or the stance of the podcast. While we aim to provide valuable insights and information, it's important to approach all topics with critical thinking. I encourage you to do your own research, consider multiple perspectives, and form your own conclusions. Healthy discussion is always welcome, and I'm happy to engage with listeners in the YouTube comments section to continue the conversation. Lastly, don't forget to follow us on all major social media platforms, including Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, and X. Find us at the Muscle Growth Podcast and myself at reps with Roscoe. Welcome Charlie to The Muscle Growth Podcast, where we explore subjects related to muscle science and hypertrophy. I'm thrilled to have you join us for today's conversation. Can you briefly introduce yourself and your journey into the world of bodybuilding? Yeah, sure. First off, thank you for having me on the podcast, Roscoe. My name is Charlie Jung. I am an IPV pro. I used to compete in powerlifting, I would say 6-7 years ago and then I made a transition over to bodybuilding, I would say roughly around 5-6 years ago. And I've been working towards that goal ever since. And recently in the last, it was last summer 2024, I turned pro in the open. And at the moment I am just working my way towards growing a bit more before even thinking about stepping on stage again. And beyond that, I am an online coach to help others, you know, with their goals, whether that be bodybuilding related, general health, just want to get jacked, anything in that realm. And yeah, hopefully we'll have a awesome conversation here today and hopefully your viewership gain some insight from whatever I have to say I'm. Very excited for it. Thank you very much for your time and effort. I was wondering what spurred that transition from powerlifting to bodybuilding. Oh, quite simply, I was running into recurring little nags and niggles in my joints, specifically my shoulders and biceps during my approach to competitions. So during like the last two months or so, it'd be the same exact spot right here on my biceps due to squatting lobar and just not being mobile. Put so much stress on that. That's when I got the bench press. My arms would just give out from the pain. So that kept happening. And even with all the mobility work and little changes in my technique, it still recur. So I decided to take a little break to just hopefully let that heal up, work on mobility, just build up muscle in hopes to get back to powerlifting. But the mobility part never really panned out. I think I'm just too wound up. But more importantly, I fell in love with like the process of bodybuilding. The training was really, really fun. I enjoyed the all-encompassing aspects of the kind of process of it because it wasn't just training. Powerlifting shouldn't be just training, by the way, but a lot of powerlifters take it that way, like like I did, but body bleeding. You have to be so much more on top of like your activity, your diet, routine, sleep, things like that. And I guess that just clicked with me. I've been always been someone who enjoyed routine, who thrived in routine. And I think once I started, you know, going towards that route, I just fell in love with it and I just kind of never looked back. That takes us really nicely into a question about sustainable training. So you mentioned that you were having injuries and things. How have you now adapted your approach for bodybuilding to be more sustainable? And taking a step back, for people that are powerlifting, how can they maybe try and make it more sustainable for them? You mentioned the mobility work. What else? Yeah. So let me I guess, I guess. Approach this from my personal experience 1st and then I can kind of expand on other parts to hopefully help others in similar positions. So for me. I think I got there a bit too late to the whole working on mobility. I never did that throughout powerlifting. I just kind of got stronger and. Stronger and. Stronger and by the time I. Needed it. Again, it was too late. I was already knocking on the not knocking. I already squatted 800 lbs in competition and I've totaled like over 1900. So it's got to a point where it might be, you know, I might be pushing the limits of like what I can do here. You know, I tried and it it didn't work, which is fine. Was the guy kind of fell over by building. So it kind of worked out in the end anyway. But for me, what has changed a lot in bodybuilding is that luckily I don't have to focus on specific, specific exercises or movements. I don't think you're kind of, you know, locked into those three, right? You have to do those. That said, I'll get into, you know, what can help others in a second. But I had to do, do those things, especially towards the end of a meat prep, right? Because if I'm not. Practicing. Those movements, I'm not going to be proficient in those movements when I get to them. But you know, once again, I was at a point where no matter how short of a period I was doing them, as soon as I did 1 heavy session of low bar, straight bar squats, my arms would be like 90% fucked already. Yeah, I got that bad. But now in bodybuilding I don't have to worry about having specific movements and I can pick movements based on what feels good. So I'm not bound to anything and I can always adapt if I have little aches and pains, which you know, we all all do now for I guess people in partly. Now what I highly suggest if they aren't doing so already is try to maintain the amount of mobility they already have. They don't have to increase it, but I think doing some work here and there to make sure they're maintaining. What they have? Isn't is crucial, especially if they don't want to end up like me? And that can be as simple as just simply doing some stretches at the end of your workouts. Yeah, simple as that to be quite honest. And another part there is something that can help with their recurring little nags is to just focus. More on non. Pilot and specific movements for a vast majority of their training. I think that's one mistake that I did during my career is that I focused way too much on deadlifts, straight bar squats and barbell bench pressing, when in reality, I could probably just focus on those things the last two months out from a competition, You know, for beginners, you probably can throw that in more, but the more advanced you are and the more skill you've acquired in those movements, it doesn't take long for you to become proficient at them again. So I, I think even for super advanced power lifters, even a month of using those specific movements is plenty to maximize your proficiency at those movements. And as you're leading up to those using those specific movements, you can use very like like like movements, right? Like a bar, like a Buffalo bar squats or a Buffalo bar bench, you know, some some little variations so you're not taxing that same moving pattern and possibly possibly, you know, wearing down on those the joints when you actually need them during a peak for a prep. And before that, you can just work on machines, cables, things like that too. You know, at the end of the day, muscle is going to move load, right. The more muscle you have, the stronger you're going to be, you know, not that you know you're going to be the strongest while building that muscle. Obviously you're going to be the strongest when you potentiate all that muscle that you've accrued and be proficient in those movement patterns. But you know your, your, your job as a power lifter isn't to be strong all the time is to be strong on the platform. So I think taking the time to build the muscle so that you are your strongest or I have the potential to be your strongest in the long term is what you should be focusing on. That makes a lot of sense. Is the Buffalo bar like a cambered bar? Yeah, it's the one that's curved. Yes, yeah, OK, yeah, OK. Cool, cool, cool, cool. And on that note, you mentioned maybe not doing straight bar deadlift, straight bar bench and squad. Would you like maybe vary that out with like a Zercher squat or something or and like you said, the cambered bar for the bench or maybe something else that's still that movement or that pattern? So I, I think that is a fantastic way to go about things. I, I do think context matters a lot here too. How advanced the lifter is, where in the phase of training they are, how close to your competition they are, That's all going to factor into what movements at what frequency they choose to use. Like I said, like you know, the more beginner you are, likely you can keep a lot of those same movement patterns in and similar ones like front squats, searcher squats like that. And as you become more advanced, depending what's going on, the phase of your training, you know, obviously if you're right like 3 weeks out from training, you probably want to work with more specific movement patterns. But, you know, who's to say that, you know, you couldn't work searcher squats in or front squats in, let's say three months out and then start tapering in more straight bar movements here and there. And then, you know, as you approach your competition, when you're like 3-4 weeks out, you probably want to focus, you know, solely on those moving patterns. Yeah. No, that makes that makes perfect sense. And how would you breakthrough plateaus? You mentioned about progressing easily and I think that's maybe for the beginners, but how do you get through the plateaus, like when you get stuck on a bench on a certain number, same with the squat to deadlift. What is your favorite way to kind of breakthrough? And then what's the way that's worked the best for you? Or all other part lifters. I mean I know people are going to hate this answer because it's so simple but change small variables. It's not a like a magic like potion or magic bullet. It's not like one magic thing in your training that you use change to, you know, now breakthrough the plateau. I think you just have to make incremental changes in your approach and that's how you make those incremental, you know, gains in your progress. You know, it could be as small as are you sleeping 7 1/2 hours per night? Try 8 hours, right? That's for me. That's like it probably a one of the bigger things people do but people don't realize, especially as power lifters. I think bodybuilders have are more in tune with that. Although I think more bodybuilders could do better on that end too. But sleep is a huge factor in how you're going to not only recover from your training, but be sharper, probably have better output. In your training. Too. Another thing too is, you know, gain weight. Once again, I'm not saying you go on a Dreamer bowl. Which I we see a lot of power lifters do, right? They just like I. See this? I see this thing. With power lifters where as soon as they decide to, they're like, OK, I'm going to the next weight class. They just like eat everything in the world and like try to reach that next upper limit of that weight class as soon as possible, which is just asinine. But make small incremental changes in your diet, right? You know, it's more, once again, more muscle is going to move more load in the long run. So work on that, work on sleep, whatever helps you recover, reduce stress. You know, change little variables in your training. You know, if you've reached a plateau with your current plan, do you need more volume? Do you need less frequency? Do you need more frequency? You know, change small variables based on hopefully metrics they are tracking in their progress. You know, what feels more sore? What feels more beat up? What feels not as beat up during training? Are you recovering time? Do you recover? Do you feel fresh the day after, after a night of sleep? If not, increase your sleep once again. How's your body weight doing? Is it holding? Is it going up? It's going down. So once again, I, I, I, I know what pilots are listening to this and they're going like, I'm not do I'm not going to do all that or I don't do that right? Like, that's a bodybuilder thing. I promise you, it's, it shouldn't be. Like I, I, I've said this in the past, I think bodybuilders and powerlifters should be doing most of the things exactly the same. There's not, Yeah, like most of their plans should be the same. The only time it changes really is when powerlifters start working towards a meat and they need to start potentiating that strength on those three specific movements. And that's pretty much it. Like if you want to be the best product in the world, you should be doing. Things like a bodybuilder. It's a it's an interesting take and I think I definitely agree with it for the most part. But interestingly enough, I had a world record power lifter on the show before and they said that they eat whatever their kids eat. They don't have a diet, they don't have anything like that. They just eat whatever their kids are eating. And I was blown away by that. I was like, that's crazy. OK. They just eat the same, just more. And I said that's that's wild. That's that's a world record holder bench presser. You know what? That's that's fine too, because what you can actually adapt to in the real world is. Going to matter more, like, you know, we're speaking in terms of like. When you get stuck. What is the best thing in? Or or, or or or even like what I, what I'm really saying is what is the best thing you do in I just right, if everything's perfect, well, we can move. But you know, here's the thing, you know, most, most people who do piloting and bodybuilding, we have jobs like we're not like professional powerlifters or professional bodybuilders. Even I've done IP Pro that doesn't. Mean anything? I work a normal job, I have family life, I have friends, so like whatever you can actually make work is going to be the thing that sustains you best throughout the. Long run that makes perfect sense. And I think a lot of people don't realize what you just mentioned there about a lot of professional bodybuilders, athletes having other jobs or, or the main jobs and then the bodybuilding or the powerlifting is just on the side for fun. Not everyone. Some of them do it full time. They're lucky, I guess. Or or not, yeah. They're very lucky. Yeah, that's a very, I could name like maybe like probably a small handful. But actually does it full time. So is your full time job ascend? Yes, is an online coach. Full time, OK, OK, amazing, amazing. And is it mostly general pop or power lifters? Bodybuilders. I would say if I do off top my head 60 to 70% are Gen. pop but want to look the best they can. Pretty much putting I would say as much or almost as much effort into building the physique as I would say most amateur bodybuilders. A lot of them do better than most amateur bodybuilders that I've talked to. I would say about 20% are in that boat but either currently competes or wants to compete soon. And I would say about 10% are non physique based or non physique focused athletes who are into, you know, other sports like powerlifting strong, men strong. Women, I have a Highlands game, athletes, rugby just makes like one guy does. Marathons, like a few guys just do marathons and ultra marathons and work towards building physique. So kind of like a mixed bag but mostly physique based. But that's so cool that you have such a wide range of athletes, so Congrats for that. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, They're really fun to work with. Who's your favorite? No, I'm kidding. You mentioned something that I totally agree with earlier is that the more muscle you have, it does directly correlate to your strength. A lot of, and I know that shouldn't be controversial, but apparently saying apparently I've and I've had arguments with people, they say that getting more muscle doesn't equate to more strength. And I agree it doesn't always because you do get really Jack bodybuilders that are not that strong and then you get some more skinny guys that are very strong. But I think in general, the more muscle you have, the more strength that you will be able to have as well. Like there will definitely be a limit, like the £150 man will not be able to deadlift 500 kilograms. It's just not happening. And here's the thing, I I think that's that statement that we make could be made less controversial if we put in a little caveat and say the same person will be stronger with more muscle. Yes. But I mean, that's. Obvious I I will say always. Yeah, but that, but that's obvious. And that's, that's obvious. Yeah, like you said, like yes, we have. Why we have to add the caveat otherwise people get upset and I understand, but it's that that that's what we mean. Yes, yeah, Unfortunately social media is in a way where if you say. Something. Someone's always going to pick that that small exception and argue with you about it. Oh yeah, for sure. And it's like, but, but it's social media. It's shorts. They're called shorts because people have short attention spans. You can't give all the. You can't give all the details in a short or a lot. Of yeah. And, and if you want to argue, then I guess you can. But like, it's unnecessary, I think. Like there's more important, there's bigger issues to argue about than if you had more muscle, would you be stronger? Because you probably would. Yeah. But anyway, Speaking of incredible feats, did you see what happened this weekend? I saw one extremely impressive power lifter in the 275 I think # weight class total something insane. Like close to 2700 raw with wraps. Yeah, 26 something, right? Yeah, South African. Colton Engelbrecht. 1200 kilograms. Yeah, yeah, I, I saw that on my I immediately thought like, Yep, that that that's a record that's going to stand probably forever. I I, I, I saw a clip. I think he squatted some. I knew he squatted over 1000. He deadlift over 1000 and he benched like close to six and like set like 53573 or something like that and it looked like a second attempt. So it was a 1200 kilogram total, which is the first total that big ever in the history of powerlifting. It was a 470 kilogram squat, 260 bench kilograms, 470 deadlift, which gave him the biggest total ever in the history of the world in the powerlift, in powerlifting. I'm pretty sure they weren't doing that back in the day. Highest recorded one at least. He almost locked out 500. It was right at the top. It was right. It was right there. And I think his CNS was just like Brew. You've done a lot today. You need to just use this stop. Charlie and I talked briefly about how truly incredible Colton's achievement is, and then went on to talk about why sports science does not hold up to a standard in a similar fashion to other more established sciences. Unfortunately, the recording for this segment was lost due to technical difficulties, but Charlie mentioned three main factors, including tiny sample sizes, poor control variables and low quality assessment criteria and result bias. We apologize for the inconvenience caused. Please enjoy the rest of the episode with Charlie. Already like this can't quite possibly take into account enough variables for the whole population for it to be adapted into anything usable for the population. There's just not enough people in the sample size and also a lot of these. Studies don't control for variables that I think most people would argue that are very important to hypertrophy, like sleep, stress management, nutrition is a huge one. Those things alone, I mean, there's probably more that I do, but those things just like stand out already off the bat. Like I don't need much more convincing that that these studies just. Aren't. Worthwhile for me at the very least. Someone in my position to mind in any sort of manner besides entertainment? So you mentioned there for why most sports science research does not hold up like in other scientific fields. You mentioned the tiny sample sizes. You mentioned the poor control variables like the sleep and then also I think you've also mentioned before the the results and the assessment including bias that that kind of thing. Yeah. Do you mind just touching a bit more on on the bias and, and that that aspect? Yeah, I mean, so I I don't want to name names because then people grab their pitchforks and like, you know, raise the riots online. But if anyone is interested, they could probably just. Do a quick research, you know, not actual research, you know, Google search on it and just see who's involved in these studies and who runs them and who and what their I guess biases already where they are was got my naming. Names, but one of them have already has already has come out in other areas and openly said that they. Are biased towards high volume training so that when these researchers. Have these biases already and then run these studies and then the actual assessment is done by either of them or people they handpick and they're not blinded on top of that. Man, it becomes really. Murky in terms of like, once again, I'm not straight up calling these people liars, but more so like I think a, a, a, a reasonable conclusion could be that like, you know, are are they skewing results based off their biases? I think that's very an honest question to ask, like without pointing fingers, right? Because it is the reality of things. And that's why that's that's why in a lot of other research, the assessments or assessors are blinded. So yeah, that's what I'd say about that. It's it's very weird. Do you think maybe it's to do with underfunding? I, I think a huge part of it's underfunding, yeah. I, I, I think, I think the major majority of the problems that sports science research related to hypertrophy deals with is via underfunding. And they're they're. Trying to make it work. With the resources they have and but, but I also want to say that is not a reason to be like, oh, we should just go with that because that's the best we have, you know? Yeah, and to be so dogmatic about it. Exactly. Yeah, I think. Using it, and that using the results combined with anecdotal experience and seeing where things line up is helpful for people. But to complete discount the latter and just rely on the research in this area, I think that's where the problem lies. Now, no, that makes sense. And then that takes us nicely into the next question, which is the importance of anecdotal evidence. In our area, I think it's. Extremely important because people have been building muscle for a long time. We cannot deny that right. And arguably people have who have been helping others do it for a long time consistently, I'd say like if you look at that. From a pure just sample size perspective, it's a far larger sample size than every single person. You can combine in every single hypertrophy late related study done like all the participants and that's I I'm not saying that's not to say that you should solely trust and a little evidence because I think who gives it? What kind of data they track to compare against their results matter. So again, don't take this as you should trust whatever other one says, even though they've had good results. Like, how did they achieve the results? Where's the proof? Where's the data? And then from there, you know, maybe that person is someone to take their experience and edible evidence into account in how you approach your own training and nutrition and just your progress towards growing more muscle. That makes perfect sense. I I like what you mentioned there about people have been growing muscle for a long time, but the area of sports science is only a few decades old. If if that's not very, it's not very old. It's not a well established science. I guess where quite a fun question here. Where does banks come from in your handle on Instagram? Oh, that's quite simple. So I'm from Philadelphia, born and raised. A part of my brain wants me to finish that song and you'll see where I'm getting at, so. For people in my age group. They might know the show called Fresh Prince of Bel Air Will Smith. In that show, he was born and raised in West Philadelphia and one of the main characters in that show his name. Was Carlton Banks. So quite simply, that's where my handle comes from. Charlton Banks. My name is actually not Charlton nor Banks. It is just a play on that character's name. That's hysterical. And then you've mentioned before that the gym is not therapy. What do you mean by that? Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, So what what what I meant by that, I made a post regarding that and a lot of people agreed. A few people took up in arms. What I meant by that post gym is not therapy is we we see a lot of people. Online like have that mindset that like. We've heard it. Straight up they say gym is my therapy or gym is my place of healing, or I go into the gym to find my demons, etcetera, right? And a lot of, I think people misconstrue avoiding their stressors and issues with therapy because it makes them feel good, because they don't have to worry about it, which is that that part's true, but it's not therapy. Therapy is actually tackling your stressors and issues and traumas. I'm not saying that the gym can't be a part of your therapy, right? Because you know, lowering short term stressors so that possibly you could have a clearer mind to think on the issues at hand. I think it's a great tool, but I think a lot of people approach the gym as being their therapy, like that is the only thing they're doing for their mental health. And to those people, I say it is not therapy. It cannot be. You're not addressing your traumas or your stressors or your issues. You are masking them with avoidance. So yeah. That makes sense and I like the way that you mentioned that. You could definitely use it as part of your therapy. Just don't make it your whole personality about about the therapy. And if you do need therapy, then that's fine. Go see a therapist and maybe the people that were up in arms with you about it, I think maybe they forgot to go see the therapist and that's why they were up in arms with you about. It possibly, yeah, it's it's it's strange that there is a very small minority that actually got, I don't know, maybe upset is the word about me saying that the gym can't be their therapy because they're they said that some of them said therapy doesn't work. Especially one guy particular said therapy doesn't work for men. I think therapy works for everyone. Yeah, yeah, that was quite strange. I I just want to kind of make this note to anyone listening that might be hesitant or has been hesitant about therapy or think it's like not for everyone. I'm going to sit here and I usually don't make dogmatic statements but I'm very comfortable with this one because it's something I truly believe in. I think everyone can benefit from therapy in one form or another. I'm not saying every therapist can help you because you have to try the right match, but once you do, I think everyone can benefit in 1° or another. Some more than others, but everyone can benefit. From it. It's not. It shouldn't. Be like this thing where it's like you're going to therapy so you're broken. It's not that. I think everyone needs help in that department to maybe get to your center or to excel. So yeah. That makes that makes perfect sense and I agree, I think there's no shortage of people that could benefit from therapy, myself included. It's just very expensive. But good thing we'll have we'll have AI to do it soon hopefully. Can we talk about PEDs in the context of harm reduction? Obviously with social media being as big as it is and teenagers and stuff going on onto PEDs, it's not. We're not trying to promote it, but from a harm reduction side of things, Can you talk about it in general in terms of at a professional level, how what kind of PEDs are used, what kind of dosages, and then maybe on a more personal level, what you see in competitions and from your peers and from yourself? OK, so I guess the first part, let me just repeat. So I answered correctly. PB usage at the professional level, is that the question? Like what is that? What does it look like? And what are people doing? For harm reduction at the professional level or what they. Should be doing. Both. Both. However you want to phrase it, those are both important. OK, so the first, OK, the first part, what dosages? Should people be using at the professional level that's all going to be context based and everyone's going to be look different and I'll kind of get into that in a bit, but there is no, the answer is there is no dose, there's no range, there's no number. It depends on how the person responds responds to that dose exactly. And what and to that compound? Exactly and duration compound. And duration, yes, yeah, yeah, and. What people should be doing at the professional level, to be quite frank, at all levels of PD us at minimum they should be checking their blood pressure weekly, right? They should be getting regular lab work. And if you want to put on that extra layer of insurance, which again, in my opinion it's something that. Should be a no brainer. Is get periodic echocardiograms and calcium score tests and I think if you do. Those things you have most of your bases covered in terms of the alarms that are going off and what you should be tracking to then hopefully have mitigation protocols to, you know, implement so that you are not suffering from those, you know, issues. Yeah. So then next question is what do I see? What? What do I see in professional bodybuilding like usage of P DS? I see such a wide range and I know that a lot of people listen to this are going to get mad at what I'm about to say because everyone thinks not everyone. I'm not talking about everyone, but there's a, there's a strong majority of people that think pro bodybuilders are the way they are because all the gear they take. That is true sometimes, but sometimes it is not. Again, depends how someone responds to the drugs, the duration, the compounds, the dose. I have seen some pros and this is something that's gonna resonate with a lot of people where they're, you know, top milligram per week dose can go easily over 3 grams, 4G, right? We see that, we've heard the stories, right? 3 grams, I wouldn't even say that's like I wouldn't even say that's excessive, right? 4 / 3 grams possibly like 4G I've seen. And this part, this next part is going to be the part that a lot of people like to. Like that can't be. Possible. I know pros and not just regular pros, Olympians. The most they've taken is 1 1/2 grams of year per week and sometimes during the year they are on TRT. I'm not when I say TRTI don't mean like 400 milligrams of tests per week, I'm talking like 125 milligrams of tests per week, like pretty much in that range of true TRT and a lot of people are going to listen to that and go like that's not possible. Because you know they have egos. It's fine. Like you know they're only better than because of drugs. No, it's drugs. But they're also better than you because they're genetically better than you. Which is fine, right, That they're generally prone to grow more muscle and respond to those drugs in that manner and. I guess that's the long answer of it depends. Again, there's a giant range of drug use in professional bodybuilding and the way you respond to it. It's going to be the factor of how much you take or decide to take and how you respond to it. And what's harm reduction practices do I see in pro bodybuilding? It's all over the place. I I know people who. Do all the smart things, check your blood pressure, get lab work done what at the at the right times. You know, some even get their echo and calcium floor tests done. And I know bodybuilders who I've asked what their blood pressure usually running and they have no fucking idea. Like that is the most basic, simple thing you could do. It's no one has an excuse not to check their blood pressure. And I'm talking about normal people too. Like standard persons should be checking your blood pressure regularly, right? Like you have no excuse. It's $30 on Amazon. It takes quite literally 30 seconds to do. And it is a huge factor in your health. So yeah, I've seen it all over. Across the board, man, it's. It's some of it's awesome to see and some of it's. Quite alarming and sad. Terrifying. Yeah. So obviously, all these compounds can have negative side effects and I don't want to brush over those. But is there something that you would say some compounds are generally considered safer and better tolerated in your opinion and that US may be safer versus ones that are more dangerous, that you don't think there's any reason anyone should ever go on them? Are we talking about PDS as a whole or just anabolics right now? Sure, PEDs as a whole, but I'm thinking along the lines that like maybe like testosterone is well tolerated for most people, safer than something like trend for example. Got it. So let's so anabolics then first. Yeah, OK, Anabolics. Usually what I see is, once again, I'm talking in very broad strokes and generalities with people I've spoken with but also work with for years. People tend to tolerate a base dose of testosterone pretty well. If you don't, that's already a kind of alarming sign already that maybe you might cut out for it. But then on top of that, I would say the compounds I've seen that, again, most people tolerate pretty well are pretty violent. Masteron Anavar NPP EQ to a good degree, but I'd say those pretty much covers a lot of drugs, right? And I, I, I think the stand out thing here is kind of you mentioned like what are some anabolics that I, I see a higher propensity for unwanted side effects are things like trend right, trust alone Deca, although Deca and you know. MPP, someone would be like, oh, it's the same compound, right? I, I, I think the, just the duration at, at which DECA is in your system, especially if things go awry is not worth it unless you know, you respond to it very well and you know that, that to use. I'd rather use MPP in that situation, but I'm getting the weeds now. More so yeah just kind of Simply put trend how most orals I know I named anavar, but I I do find anavar quite mild especially on the on the liver also it has a larger impact on lipids than I would like but you know I. I think people do. Over over worry about the impact of orals on the liver. You know, things like obviously things like. Halo are probably more liver toxic, but no one's using Halo at a lengthy, you know, course. At least I. I hope not, yeah. Only power lifters on meat there. Yeah, yeah. But in terms of like overall PVS, I'd say things that for the general. Once again, I'm talking about the general user, right? Not someone that knows how to use. Safely or properly or working with the coach, but the general user probably want to stay away from things like GNP, right? GNP is one of the things where it's extremely effective for what it does. But it's probably the one thing or I'd say two things, but probably the one thing that you will die if you use incorrectly. You will, you will, you will, you will die 100% like you. You can take a dose where you you are now you will you will not come back from unfortunately. Yeah, it was. It was found in Dynamite I. Believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. That's right. Can you have it if you add fertilizer? Yeah, I think, I believe if you go try to go through like TSA, like like the airports with it, it goes off. As an explosive. It makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why it'll travel with it, yeah. Oh, so you've taken? Yeah, yeah. Once again, I'm talking about general. People should probably stay away from it. But if used properly in the right context and very good, it is extremely effective for what it does. And what? What you need for it to do? Yeah, so it raises the body's temperature in a similar way to clean, right or. Not not completely wrong. OK, so once again, I I I I could have probably someone else explain this much better than the eye. It can. But what it does, once again, I'm not going to talk from the actual what does a cellular level, but what it does it it makes your cells more inefficient or might your mitochondria more inefficient at, I believe creating energy so that you there's like a certain percentage that is a byproduct and this this releases heat. That's why you're by so clen. Your body picture might rise because it elevates your but your heart rate, but DNP doesn't work in that mechanism. It actually makes you more inefficient. Wow, interesting. OK, yeah, that's a hectic one. That's a hectic one. That's why you don't recommend it for 99.9% of people probably. Yeah, because if you take too much, you can die. You can't. Yeah, you can't. You can't reverse out of it. Like Clen, you just stopped taking it, right? If you take way too much, you know, you might obviously, if you take a really, really big dose, you might go to the hospital and I don't know what they can do at that point. You know, you're going to fight with DNP. There's there's no nothing you can do after a certain dose if it's build up too much of a dose in your system, I think I I think. They can try to like put you in an ice bath or something to raise your core, I mean lower your core temperature. But beyond that, like you have to write. You either make it or you don't. You ride it. Out or you don't. I I heard about a a disaster where a professional IFBV pro took 50 units of insulin by mistake. Yeah, yeah, that's the other thing I was going to say when I said the one out of two, that's the second one. Like short acting insulin can be the other thing to get people in trouble. OK, so is there a long acting one that's. Yes, yes, 100%. So for, for most people, I, I don't think short, I'm not saying short acting insulin. There's not a, a need for or a place for it. More so I think people over leverage it nowadays you can just take something like Lantus that's really long acting insulin. You get in far less trouble with that. That's the one I. Suggest most people. Use if they're using insulin in their overall course, that's what I prefer. That's what most of my clients who are enhanced. I recommend once again, not to say that short term insulin, short acting insulin isn't beneficial. I think you know pre and post workout it can have its benefits but overall. I like long form insulin because of its efficacy but also it's just way less. The risk factor goes down so much like. You really have to try to go hypo on lantis like you have to actively. Like starve yourself for 4-6 hours and do activity if you want to for that to happen. So you mentioned Lantis and DNP. What else do you have in your protocol and how is it different a bulking protocol versus a cutting versus is there a main gaining for you or do you always do bulk and cut? Let me tackle. Those in parts. So DNP and Lantis are things I've used. I wouldn't I don't like keep them in like DMP. I've used if I in my whole. Career a total of I would say 8 weeks, maybe 10 weeks total. Like not at once obviously, just like cumulative. It's not something I use, I've used quite often, it's just what's going as the needs arise. Lantus is something I regularly use when I am trying to gain weight. So the question, second question was what differences do I in my protocol do I have when I'm trying to gain weight or lose weight? So First off, the anabolic side of things to be honest, not much changes. The only thing that might change a little bit is I might skew a bit more towards compounds that. Help with my joints and help with, you know, help with a bit more water retention during a deficit to once you have to protect my joints a bit more. And just to feel a bit fuller, like artificially still, but still, you know, it's nice to feel full. It's nice to get pumps. Growth hormone stays in year round at different. You know doses obviously yeah Lantus and insulin is something I rarely used organ deficit I only I mostly only use it during a gaining phase and during a deficit once again as. Needed. I think all users approach all drugs as as needed. Not like what am I doing? And what's you know, if I'm cutting, do I always put a stimulus? No, it's once again. Like what's the timeline, What's your trajectory? Where do you need things to be in? What are the needs? So you know, things I've used things like DMP clan during a deficit. Oh, something, some other thing I also keep in mostly year round is T3 and T4 to pretty much maintain my T3 and T4 in, you know, pretty, pretty much make sure my metabolism is the way I want it to be. Usually with decrease in the food for a prolonged time, your thyroid production goes down. And when you're gaining weight, your thyroid production has trouble for some people maintaining its output for the level of size you have. So you start feeling a little sluggish. So as a professional bodybuilder, I just kind of use the dose to replace what I want, you know, in my system. What else would you say? And obviously this isn't like I'm gaining, this is in, I'm losing, this is in once again. And just kind of for the audience, you know, it's not just always use, use, use, you know, I have bridge periods, bridge periods, bridge phases between my courses to assess health regain, you know, health, you know, metrics at least, you know, sort of like blood pressure or lab work or whatever. I'm looking at that point also just kind of, you know, take the load off. I think just people always want to go, go, go, go, go and don't realize how much stress is the body. Yeah, I did that answer most of your questions there. Yeah, exactly, exactly. What's the most testosterone you've ever done? The most testosterone I've ever done was early on my career, I got up to 500, I want to say 500 milligrams. So if 500 milligrams per week of testosterone? Is the most I've taken. That's not total. Load just testosterone. That's not a lot just for the audience. Just by the way, I think most professional bodybuilders would be 5 times that probably. No, I would say no, no. No, no, or a lot. Sorry, yeah, most professional bodybuilders not I haven't seen do 2.5 grams of testosterone now I'd say that's quite high, yeah. Oh did you see Derek from all place? More dates would disagree, but you're actually a pro so he doesn't know. I I I would actually disagree with Derek on a lot. So he's thinking I know who he is. I. Listen to some of his stuff, some of the stuff I like, but some of his stuff I'm like, I don't know where he's getting that from. Quite confusing. I would love to chat with. Him one day, but. Three should yeah, 2.5 grams of testosterone per week is I've heard I've heard it, but that's oh, I don't I it's it's a ton. Do you know the figure is Steve? I do, I don't. I'm not a. Not a fan. Once again, I, I, I think so you just think I, I don't think a lot of what he says is bad. I I just think that there's not a context for. Users. So it's not. Wrong. Because I can put it, I can make situations where it's like, oh, that makes sense. But if you just take it a broad stroke to everything like that, I think it's it's tough for people to decipher what they should do, what they shouldn't do, what's safe, what's not, what's effective, what's not. But back to the 2.5 grams of testosterone, I rarely never. No, almost never. It's it's maybe, I don't know. My question for you is, do you mean 2.5 grams of gear per week, like total compounds milligrams? Yes, 100% I've taken up. I've taken almost that much. Yeah, per week. But 2.5 grams of testosterone? I, I no, that's AI Will I'll dial that like almost no one does that much testosterone per week. Yeah. And if they do take 2.5 grams of testosterone per week, I would say there are large gaps, very low hanging fruit that they. Can go after to. Optimize what they're doing on the anabolic side of things, usually at that dose for most people. Once again, I'm talking about we're always speaking generalities. For most people at that dose, they're going to run into a level of unwanted side effects that they can mitigate a lot of that if they were to use different compounds. Versus just testosterone. That makes sense. 'Cause testosterone is great. It does what it needs to do, but it also comes with a host of unwanted side effects that most people you know after I would, I would say after like 400 milligrams, like when I've seen like they start suffering from those unwanted side effects, which once it. Could be easily mitigated. With changing up their total milligrams per week exactly with different compounds, yeah. That makes a lot of sense, yeah. Yeah. Side effects. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of people confuse more testosterone as more gains when that's not the case like cream ball and doesn't increase your testosterone, but it increase. We're not looking for that. We're looking for your total, your total ability to anabolic create muscle anabolism. Exactly. That's what we're looking for, not testosterone. No, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. I think those 2.5 grams were the guys trying to push 20,000 nanograms per deciliter like those guys. Don't recommend that. What's 1 training principle most people overlook but has made a massive difference in your own journey? One training principle. You know what, I'm going to speak on this as it relates to my journey because only because I've seen the pendulum swing this way towards. In the last like. I would say 5:00-ish years, I think the pendulum. Swings back and forth over the course of decades in this field. So you know what I say now is not going to be true. Maybe a couple years from now, but intensity, I think that's something recently people are missing out on or forgetting. That is a super important variable in your progress intensity or effort, however you want to call it. There's been this huge shift in the past five years of you know what your technique and create like what is the perfect way to do a row? Like if your elbow is off like a few degrees, it's going to target more upper back, all that stuff and also range of motion and and volume. Those things are important, but it's you can't look at things in a vacuum like intensity is. You can do all those things, but if you're training like 8 reps from failure on everything, like you're missing the whole fucking point. So for me right now, I'm going to say intensity because over the years I've swung always right. I started my career off training very intensely. I started controlling that a bit more. I made a lot of good progress with really high intensity, but you know, somewhat moderation and then I got in points, you know, where I tried the Super high volume, more hyper focusing on my range of motion, hyper focusing on my technique. And while it like in my head I'm like, oh man, like I'm doing everything right 'cause like. That's what everyone's telling. Me, right. I've made the worst progress in those periods because I was overemphasizing the volume. And when you do that, you tie yourself out and because of that, you don't train intensely enough. And when you're focusing on technique and range of motion all like all the time in terms of that's all your mental energy is going towards, you're probably lacking a bit on intensity. Also, you know, if your technique breaks down like 5% during an exercise, like I've seen guys do that. And I'm not just saying that like I literally have like I'd say a lot of my clients come to. Me with that exact issue, they've fallen to the. Online advice of, you know, if your technique breaks down a little bit, that's technical failure, right? Like, yeah, you can stand on that, you know, on that point. And it'd be like, that's true. It's like, yeah, but I would say technical failure somewhere. It's it's a realm. It's not like it's an, it's not an on off binary switch, right. I think you can still be technically proficient or doing a movement technically well if you have a little bit of momentum or a little bit of deviation in your technique from Rep 1. Is that going to change depending on what movement you're doing? Of course. Right. Like I'd have much more comfort in someone doing a curl with a little bit of upper body movement than someone performing a deadlift with. A little bit of lower back flexion. Right. Like that I'd rather not have, but with a curl like it's a single joint movement, I'm not so fucking worried about that, right. So I think people have gotten into that too much worry about that too much because I've also got in that trap and forget completely about how hard they're actually training. They're worried about they're getting injured or they're worried that they're not optimizing their value for the. Effort they're putting into training, but once again, you're not putting much effort in, so you're not getting much out of it at that point anyway. So I know that's kind of a rant on my end, but that's the long answer of I think people forget right now about training hard enough in your training. Yeah, intensity. No, I totally agree. I've realized I've trained not or I train intensely sometimes and then not intensely other times. And I've realized that my main issue is trying to get a certain number of reps where I say I'm going to get 8 and then I get 8. But if I actually didn't say 8:00, I could have gotten way more. Yeah, yeah, that's a common thing. I tracked my mind into only getting 8 so now I've stopped counting on some of that. I'm like. I'd like I. Told my I told the videographer one time I'm going for four reps because it's like really heavy for me and he was videoing. So I had that extra strength and I think I did 14 reps and I was like, this is crazy. Like it's just because I was showing off for camera. So it's funny you say that because this is how I train most of my clients in in their actual training is that or this is the way I coach most of my clients in their training is that our targets are reps and reserve related, they're effort related. I have Rep ranges there, but then there's prescriptions on how you increase load based on how many reps you hit. So our target isn't the Rep like I don't, I know some coaches they program, I want to get this reps for the etcetera, right? I think it's fine. When you go about it, I think it's harder to do so because kind of your instance where you could have very much done more or on the flip side, if you had a really terrible night of sleep and all that stuff, like you, you might be stressing that way too much, right? Where the way I like to coach is here is how many reps I want you to leave and obviously that you need to work on the client with that and kind of make sure that you're on the same. Page of what? Effort is, but I think that's a better way to train. It's easy to track your you have a more linear approach to overall fatigue, accumulation, etcetera. Yeah, Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. And then finally, our last question. And once again, thank you for your patience today. Can we talk about how influencers did not get big doing optimal training? Like 8 second ridiculous stretch things. For example. In general, maybe some did. Yeah, yeah. So I love this. I love this question. I love this question. It's I think with the kind of surge of social media in the past decade plus the whole, you know, science based influencer lifter persona like those, these two things combined. Some people are capitalizing on that as their, I guess, persona online, which is fine. Once again, I, I have nothing against it. It's more so we have to look things in context and be honest about the approach we're having towards training. For example, I, I once again, I've seen there's a handful, I'm not going to name names, but there's a handful of guys online who are really, really big. They're very muscular and they, they hyper emphasize. Like like I see their video where the there's stretches like 4-5 seconds long. They pause for like a whole 2 seconds and then they do their contraction. It's everything looks perfect, beautiful. And like once again, we don't know if they're actually trained on that. First of all, right, that's just for the fucking clip. But second, like, dude, that person got big, not training like that, right, And these guys look up to these bigger dudes and like, dude, they're doing it like this. So like it must be right, right. They're falling for the same trap of like, you know when other the flip side where like someone like a bro online says like. Oh, Ronnie Coleman did XY and Z. He's big. It's the same thing but the opposite way, right? Like it's funny, they don't see it, but they they'd say it. They're like XY and Z is big and look how he does. He's like he got big training, probably like a fucking bro, which is fine. I think if once again, if you're using pretty good technique, not train, not not lifting, like you're possessed putting the effort, you know, like not like contorting your body to finish a fucking. You know a Rep. I think you're doing most things correctly right as as long as you're eating well, sleeping well, matching your stress, modulating your training volume intensity in a way where you can recover from session to session. Like you're that's like 99% of the shit and everything else like it's minutia right? Especially when your technique is decent. Like you don't have to have this ultra specific like technique If you look like a fucking robot, like rowing it XY and Z and it's like. Oh man, once again. I I don't I'm not going to name names. But probably people could probably. Figure out who I'm talking about. They're really big names online like once again, they're they're gigantic. They look amazing. I love a lot of their physiques but it's like they. Didn't get big. I think. I think. I've I've heard of the one guy that that you're chatting about and, and I believe he gave his entire protocol that he's done and I believe it was just TRT. He's never done anything else and he's one of the biggest guys I've seen online, so well done to him. Yeah, well done. Yeah, I don't, I don't believe that for a second. Yeah. We chatted about this. On this side. I'm sorry viewers, listeners, but you guys could probably you guys, if you're watching this podcast or listen this podcast, you guys are smart enough to make the logic jumps here and know who we're talking about. Exactly. So we didn't say anything though. So finally, what advice or parting words of wisdom do you have for our listeners who are looking to embark on their own journey of muscle growth and bodybuilding? I love this. Question. I'm going to give you the advice. That I wish I took for myself a long time ago and I would probably be much bigger now and as big as I was earlier in my career. And I hope you guys will take some of the advice to heart is first and foremost, training is not everything. Your diet, sleep and stress management, they're huge in your journey and how you progress. Don't think that steps equal cardio. They're different steps and meat. That's just you being a fucking human. Please do that. Cardio is for your cardiovascular health, so please do that. Also, the more efficient your body runs, the healthier you are, the better progress you're going to make. So in your nutrition, please eat mostly Whole Foods. If it comes out of if everything you eat comes out of a package, you're probably doing it wrong. If it fits your macros, doesn't work in that sense, it works. If you, you know, eat mostly Whole Foods and then, you know, throw a little tree here and there, that's fine, right? But most eat, eat colour, eat veggies, eat fruits, Whole Foods. Big thing here I've already mentioned in the podcast. Track your own metrics, track your body weight, track the way you sleep, the way you manage stress, track how you feel such in a session because that those things are going to be ultimately the things you need to track trends to know what adjustments that you need to make to optimize your progress. I know a lot of people listen to this. People online get super anxious about what they need to change and they're constantly shifting things in their program based on what other people are telling them. Which it's fine to take this advice if you don't have any base at all and you need to figure things out, that's great that you have something to at least work on and then improve from. But once you have that kind of base, stop changing your shit based on like what people say online. Even what I say, I want you to track your own like data and then make adjustments based on your data because not everyone's going to respond the same way to the same information online. Like if someone says like you need to be exactly this calorie deficits didn't make progress or you need to gain at this rate or lose at this rate, that's the most optimal rate. Like I think it's all horseshit. You need to make your adjustments based on how you're progressing and not only just scale weight. Like how how's your other biofeedback? How's your stress, how's your sleep, how's your hunger, things like that. Like you know, these targets are meaningless if you are miserable and not performing at other parts of your life the way you want to. So sorry for the rant. I know that's a lot of that's not one thing that people should look out for if they want to improve their physique over the long run. But I I truly believe that that is the way to do it. If you're if you actually care about this and want to optimize and maximize your progress is to focus on the bread and butter and not focus on just what the next. Influencer says. Or what the next study says. Yeah. That's it, That's it. That's the perfect response, so thank you so much. I don't think you went on a rant at all. In fact, I think you summarized the whole goal of the podcast, which is to enable people to get access to TOP professionals like yourself, where they give good advice, honest advice, and like you said, personalized micro adjustments based on your own metrics. I don't think it gets better than that. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it and I'm sure the listeners are going to have a blast listening to you. Oh. Thank you so much for. Having me on it was a blast. Thank you so much. Cheers, Charlie. Thank you. Thank you for. Tuning in to the Muscle Growth Podcast. If you found value in today's episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave us a five star rating and a quick review. It helps us grow and reach more people just like you. Don't forget to follow us on all major social media platforms, including Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, and X Find us at the Muscle Growth Podcast and at Reps with Roscoe. For more insights, exclusive content, and full episodes, visit themusclegrowthpodcast.com. Your support truly makes a difference, so please like, share, comment, and follow. We're grateful for every bit of it. Until next time, keep pushing your limits and staying focused on getting bigger, stronger, and better.