TMGP Ep 45 with gut health expert, PhD nutrition scientist, and health coach Dr Gabrielle Fundaro

Oh, another white boy with a podcast. Pronouns Jim bro. Another white boy with a podcast. You want to see the video? It went viral. Hi gains gurus and welcome to TMGP, the muscle growth podcast, episode 45. I am your host Rosco and today we are welcoming Dr. Gabrielle Fandaro onto the show for part one of their two-part series. Today's guest is someone who truly bridges the gap between cuttingedge science and the real world challenges lifters face on their journey to build muscle and optimize health. Dr. Gabrielle is a distinguished expert in gut health and human nutrition. She holds a PhD in human nutrition, foods, and exercise from Virginia Tech and is a former assistant professor of exercise science. In addition to being an ACE certified health coach, she holds credentials in sports nutrition, motivational interviewing, and the mesh low FODMAP program, equipping her with a rare blend of scientific expertise and practical coaching tools. As the founder of Vitamin PhD Nutrition, Dr. Fondaro champions weight neutral sustainable health strategies that empower individuals to align their habits with their values. She's a published author, international speaker, and serves on the board of both the Sports Nutrition Association and the Nutrition Coaching Global Mastermind. You may also know her from her work with Renaissance Periodization, where she helped combat misinformation in the fitness industry with evidence-based insights. Her passion lies in translating complex topics, especially the role of gut health in performance, recovery, and muscle growth into strategies people can actually apply. Please welcome to the Muscle Growth Podcast, Dr. Gabrielle Fendaro. From frustrated to fit, the Muscle Growth Podcast helps you get bigger, stronger, and better with evidence-backed strategies from our expert guests, the Gains Gurus, to build muscle, gain strength, perform at your best, and stay healthy for life. You are not what you eat rather you are what you absorb. And on that let's dive into the topics for today. An introduction to Dr. Gabrielle. The role of gut health in muscle growth and recovery. The 3Ds of gut health. Digestion disease diversity. Insoluble verse soluble fiber. The importance of nutrition for gut health. FODMAPs explained. Prebiotics versus probiotics. What's the difference and are they useful? Fermentable products. Some examples. The fallacy of natural being harmless, especially in online fitness and health spaces. Is getting a stool sample worth it? Greens powders worth it or benet? And so much more. Get ready for a truly informative episode. Quick shameless self plug. I'm uploading consistently on Reps with Rosco on various social media channels including YouTube and Instagram. So check that out for some epic fitness edutainment content. A little disclaimer, this show does not contain medical advice. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the Muscle Growth podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect my beliefs or the stance of the podcast. While we aim to provide valuable insights and information, it's important to approach all topics with critical thinking. I encourage you to do your own research, consider multiple perspectives, and form your own conclusions. Healthy discussion is always welcome, and I'm happy to engage with listeners in the YouTube comment section to continue the conversation. Lastly, don't forget to follow us on all major social media platforms, including Instagram, YouTube, Tik Tok, and X. Find us at the muscle growth podcast and myself at reps with Rosco. Welcome Dr. Gabrielle to the muscle growth podcast where we explore subjects related to muscle science and hypertrophy. I'm thrilled to have you join us for today's conversation. Can you briefly introduce yourself and your journey into the world of being a doctor in the realm of health and human performance? >> Absolutely. Um, thank you for having me. And yeah, my name is Dr. Gabrielle Fandereo. I have my bachelor's in exercise science and health education. Um, from like my my a lifetime ago, it seems. Um, and midway through my bachelor's, I realized that I really loved to tutor and to teach. And I found my anatomy and physiology courses really fascinating. And um that's when I also started to get into lifting and nutrition. And my special interest at the time then became muscle hypertrophy as well. Um I thought that like the sliding filament theory was the coolest thing that I've ever heard of. And so I decided that I wanted to pursue a doctorate so I could teach in higher ed and I could study um skeletal muscle hypertrophy. And so I went on to my doctorate at Virginia Tech. And I did start studying skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Um but there were some mishaps as sometimes is the case uh with science. And what was my side project looking at the effect of probiotic supplementation on the dilitterious effects of highfat feeding and the uh coorbidities of uh obesity. That became my main project. And so I shifted from looking at skeletal muscle hypertrophy to more of a metabolic dysregulation model. And from there I learned about the link between the gut microbiome and skeletal muscle metabolism. And because I am very curious and I always want to know everything about my special interest, um I bothered my my PI um into letting me pursue more of that angle. And so I was really the first in the lab to look specifically at the gut microbiome uh and probiotic supplementation. And then I went on to teach uh at a college in Georgia for several years. I was an assistant professor of exercise science and I taught a lot of sport nutrition classes, anatomy and physiology. Um and I worked a lot with the the new uh incoming undergrads and uh really enjoyed that. But I wasn't getting kind of the same uh connection that I had when I was like tutoring and I was working with smaller groups and you know higher ed is um an interesting place to be in terms of like politics and in my third year I was contacted by Mike Israel from Rissan Spiritization. He had seen some conversations that I was having in a sport nutrition Facebook group. And at the time I had a little blog that was very much like applied nutrition science especially for sport nutrition and supplementation and he offered me a coaching position with RP. Um so of course I took that up. But after a year of trying to teach full-time and then coach and I was going to have to prepare for promotion, I had to make a decision because I wasn't going to be able to do those things simultaneously um and and effectively to the to the the standard that I wanted to meet. And so ultimately I decided to leave higher ed and pursue coaching full-time. So I spent four years with RP and I had the pleasure of traveling internationally and speaking about sport nutrition, behavior change, a lot about um gut microbiome science and um started doing a lot of podcasts as well. And so I really entered the scene more speaking about uh gut health and gut microbiome science. And after several years of doing that and coaching, there was really an overlap and sort of a transitional period where I was focusing much more of my attention on training and education in effective coaching methods and learning much more about the potential risk and harm of pursuing appearance-based weight loss goals and using a lot of the methods that I had been using with clients like long-term macro tracking and focusing on adherence and compliance and um supporting a very uh physique and appearance based focus throughout the process. And that began to explain a lot of the um cycles that I saw my clients being stuck in and that I myself was stuck in as well. And that became really my central focus. I wanted to improve my coaching effectiveness. I wanted to make sure that I was not doing harm, you know, even unintentionally and I was also pursuing my own um improvements in body image and my relationship with food. And so for a while I did speak about both uh simultaneously the gut health stuff and and you know the coaching and behavior change side of things. Um, but last year I decided to really retire from gut health science communication. Um, because again, you know, whatever I'm doing, I want to really be able to commit myself to it and do a really excellent job. And it was difficult to do both of those things effectively. Uh, and on and the other side of it was that gut health is still an area really um fraught with pseudocience. And the way that I communicate science is very um conservative and I am very much an empiricist. Um and so the information that I was able to provide to people really wasn't satisfying to them because oftentimes people want practical uh applications, right? They want to say, "Oh, okay. Well, based on this research like what can I do about my gut health?" The term gut health in and of itself is very poorly defined and it really does not have a research definition and all of the definitions that we use when we're speaking about gut health like dispiosis share the same problems. Even diversity, there are many different types of diversity. So when even the foundational concepts and terms of an area of research are still so unclear, it's almost impossible to translate much uh in a way that's actionable and that's exciting for people. And so I really thought, you know, maybe I can come back to this in in five or 10 years when we've gotten to a place where, you know, these gut directed tests actually say something. Um, but yeah, for now I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna pause that and um I've really been enjoying focusing more on behavior change and um writing a book and so yeah, that's been my focus. >> Wow. Well, what an intro. There's so much to to digest there. Um, so thank you. Thank you so much for that. Um, I think like you mentioned, you retired from the gut health last year, but I think you're still probably quite well verssed in that thing. So, I'm still going to ask you a few questions from there, but then we'll we'll move on to some of the newer stuff that you're doing. But, I think being out of it for since last year, you'll still be one of the kind of top people to talk to. And a lot of people have asked for you specifically to talk about that stuff. So, you know, you got to give the people what they want. >> This is true. This is true. I can still I can still do it uh some justice. Absolutely. >> No, I hope so. I'm sure you can. Um, so let's let's go through this bit quickly. So then we can get on to what your new passion is um and we can try and adapt some of the questions based on the new things that you've told me. So let's go with how does gut health influence muscle growth and recovery in athletes and lifters. >> Mhm. So first I want to give my working definition of gut health because it doesn't actually mean anything unless you explain what it means. So the term that I've given is what I call the 3Ds of gut health. So we have digestion, disease and diversity. So digestion refers to both the objective and subjective process of assimilating nutrients. So we have the objective ability of your gastrointestinal tract to break down food effectively and then absorb those nutrients. So for example, if someone has lactose intolerance, that's an objective inability to break down lactose that's found in a lot of dairy products. But then there's also the subjective experience where if a person who has lactose intolerance has lactose, then they subjectively will feel uncomfortable. They'll have some bloating and some gas. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's anything wrong in terms of damage being done to the intestinal tract. That's not the case. But there are instances when we're talking about the disease aspect of gut health where a disease can affect either the function and or the anatomy of the GI tract. So in that case if someone has a disease like celiac disease or inflammatory bowel disease then they are going to have anatomical changes in terms of ulcers for example to the gastrointestinal tract that will also affect both the objective and subjective aspects of digestion. Whereas if they have just a functional disease like irritable bowel syndrome the intestinal tract will look normal. there's not going to be a visible sign of disease, but the function is altered. And so that can also alter the subjective experience of digestion. Sometimes we can have uncomfortable digestion not because of a disease at all, but because the microbes in our gut, so this is where we get to diversity. This is the ratio and variety of different microbes that you have in your gut. when they metabolize certain carbohydrates that can lead to gas production and it can lead to changes in pH and the production of short- chain fatty acids and all of that can uh contribute to differences in stool quality. So it's not that the person has a disease, it's just that they have eaten a food that has been meta been metabolized by these microbes and then it leads to the subjective experience of discomfort during digestion. And the reason that I want to point all of this out is that all of these are related. So if you have a disease process that can influence the gut microbiome and there can be gut microbes that also influence disease processes. So there is a um sort of a reciprocal relationship there. And as I mentioned those microbes can affect the subjective process of digestion and then the anatomy of our GI tract affects the subjective and objective process of digestion. So they're all related and that means the gut health is a very complex system rather than just one thing that we can improve through uh a single intervention. And the area where people are especially confused or understandably because it's very complex um but often misled is referring to diversity. So as I mentioned diversity refers to generally the number of different species or species like groups of microbes that you have and then also their relative proportions. So when we say richness that's one aspect of diversity and sometimes there are articles that only looked at that aspect of diversity. That's looking at the number of different species like groups of microbes and then evenness is looking at their proportions. So the relative amounts like do we have a lot of one group and just a little bit of another group. Now that's really important in terms of how we're interpreting the literature but we have to take it a step further because when we're looking at who's there and their proportions that's also going to affect their activity or the functional diversity. So functional diversity refers to all of the potential genes that these microbes can express and then which genes are actually active are actually turned on. So the way that this often shows up in terms of uh misrepresentation or misunderstanding is that people are told that if there are um pathogenic microbes for example an H pylori or a form of ecoli or streptococcus that that means that they have bad microbes they have you know dispiosis or an unhealthy gut microbiome because there is an assumption that if a pathogenic microbe is present that means that a disease process is present. present, but that's not the case. Many pathogenic microbes are normal inhabitants of our gastrointestinal tract, but they don't uh cause a disease process unless there's something about the proportions of the microbiome itself or something going on with our immune system that allows them to proliferate and allows that disease process to actually be effective. because it's metabolically expensive for them to produce those toxin in toxins in large amounts. So what's often going on is that the microbes are interacting with one another. They're often doing something called quorum sensing. So they're taking a census of how many other microbes are here, how many of them are like me, how many are are different. That's one of the ways they interact. They also battle with biochemical warfare for uh real estate and for resources like nutrients. So they will compete with one another. Sometimes they'll have a cooperative relationship with one another. So one microbe will produce something that is a waste product for that microbe but then is useful for another type of microbe. And then you have microbes that will um not just compete indirectly but will actually be uh toxic to other microbes. So whatever they produce is going to be sort of like a pollution to the environment of other microbes. You also have microbes that like to hang out near the intestinal wall and microbes that like to hang out in the lumen of the intestine. So whether they're hanging out in the illumin or on the intestinal wall, they're going to have more or less contact with our intestinal cells and with the underlying immune cells. So not only are they interacting with one another, they're also interacting with the human intestinal cells and the immune cells. And there's some evidence that that interaction, especially early in life, is part of what educates and shapes our immune system so we can have normal immune responses. And if that's absent, we end up with things like a higher predilction for uh autoimmune diseases and allergies, for example. So when we're talking about gut health, we're talking about, like I said, a a really complex system. Now, you asked about the relationship between the gut microbiome and skeletal muscle. Interestingly, there are several different axes between the human gut microbiome and other organs. So there's the gut brain axis. So that's the brain and its interactions with the intestinal tract. Um, and there are actually several different branches of the nervous system that connect the brain and the intestinal tract. Um, you have the gut liver axis, you have the gut muscle axis, and there are more, but those are kind of the main three that we talk about. So the link between the gut microbiome and skeletal muscle is really more indirect. So you don't get microbes that are exiting the GI tract and going out and um coming into contact with intestinal cells, but they can release a number of different products that can bind to receptors on on int on skeletal muscle and modify the activity of the skeletal muscle. And the one that I studied was lipopolyaccharide which is released by certain bacteria that are also associated with highfat diets and with uh having obesity. And this lipopolysaccharide when it binds to receptors on skeletal muscle can initiate an inflammatory cascade. It's not a strong inflammation. It's not something that you would feel, but it is a lowgrade inflammation that has been implicated in the development of type 2 diabetes. So, there's one potential link there. They call this metabolic endotoxmia. When you have obesity or overweight or if you are habitually eating a highfat diet, that's linked to higher levels of this lipopolysaccharide uh and that low-grade inflammation. And there's also a link in terms of uh benefits to endurance athletes. For example, um they have identified some specific profiles in the guts of endurance athletes where there's a higher abundance of certain microbes that produce or process um substances that can support muscle performance. So for example, they might be able to clear lactate or they uh ferment certain carbohydrates to shortchain fatty acids that can be used as an energy source whereas those carbohydrates were not available to us uh based on our human digestive enzymes. So they can they can engage in what's called energy harvesting essentially taking more of the calories from the foods that we're eating and making those available to uh our our tissues including skeletal muscle. Um, and there are also newer links. They're looking at kind of like their ability to modify IGF-1 and how that might play a role in skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Um really the the foundational um research that was looking at the link between the microbiome and skeletal muscle was much more focused on endurance um and looking at the association between cardiorespiratory fitness and and uh microbiome diversity and finding that people with higher cardiorespiratory fitness tended to have higher levels of uh diversity in their guts. And we generally say like more diversity is a good thing although that's a very general and umbrella statement. It's not always true, but that's the assumption that's being made. Uh, and active people in general tend to have higher levels of diversity. Um, unless they're not eating a a microbiome supportive diet, and in that case, they can um if they're lacking fiber and and complex carbohydrates, then they might see that they're uh microbiome is just as diverse or or not as diverse um but like the same as a a sedentary person. So that's that's the long and short of gut microbiome, gut health, and skeletal muscle metabolism. That are tricky. >> Well, wow. Thank you so much for that. Um, and like you said, it's super complex, so I'm glad we have people like you to explain it. I think I'm going to need to do a much deeper dive into it uh after this episode, but I'm excited to hear what more you have to say cuz I'm sure everyone already has learned a ton just from that whole uh explanation. So, thank you very much. You mentioned at the end there about um uh basically fiber and its role as well as complex carbs. Um is it possible uh that you can get too much fiber? And I know it's that that's not what we're trying to get off this podcast. I'm sure the the general for most people should be get more fiber. But um someone also involved in the diet space and nutrition space has told me that I potentially get too much fiber and hence the quality of my stool is maybe I'm not sure what the scientific term is but looser than um than it needs to be. Is that possible to get too much? I'm sure it's with most things too little too much. There is a sweet spot. And how can one know if if uh for example for myself if I'm getting too much or too little. What are the kind of signs in your in your stool quality? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's both um whether you're getting the correct amount and then also the right blend of different types of fiber because we have soluble fiber and then we have insoluble fiber. So this is something that I have seen so often in the health and fitness space. I mean, especially more like the fitness space, um, you know, and then people who have appearance focused goals and physique goals, one of the most common ways to address hunger and to kind of stave it off is to have really high volume meals and they need to be very low calorie. And so people will eat really large amounts of vegetables um, and especially the fibrous vegetables. So the ones that are like really low carb and have tons of fiber like broccoli, um cucumber, you know, so that they can fill their stomachs and um feel more full and it is possible to get too much fiber. Now on the extreme end of too much fiber, you can actually interfere with nutrient absorption um because fiber can bind uh to certain nutrient to certain micronutrients. Um, and so if you're getting, you know, there's not like a specific number, but you know, hundreds of grams of fiber or something like that, then it's certainly possible to interfere with nutrient absorption. Um, usually from what I've seen in the literature, I believe it's about like 70 grams of fiber per day. That above that, people tend to report more GI distress. And if we're getting much less, you know, if we're looking at like 10 20 grams of fiber per day, that's below the recommendations. And sometimes people will feel some constipation from that. So on that uh on that gramage is that the gramage of pure fiber coming out of the total or is that like say 70 g of carrots or cucumber? >> No 70 gram of fiber. So it would be just the fiber that's coming out of the food. >> So So how much would like a cucumber have percentage wise of fiber? >> Cuc a whole cucumber. I mean, you're probably looking at like several grams of fiber, but it would take I mean, you'd have to be eating probably an uncomfortable amount of vegetables. Yeah. Vegetables. And it's not just vegetables. Yeah. Vegetables, grains, legumes. Those are your main sources of fiber. And fruit. >> Um, so >> and fruit as well. Yes. Y >> Okay. Yeah, I have a lot of fruit, so I don't know. It could be could be some of that. Well, and the other thing too, well, I'll talk about FODMAPs in just a second, but um so yeah, so with that range of fiber, you know, if you're between probably like, you know, if you're between 30, which is the average of the recommendation, 30 to 70 grams of fiber per day, then you're probably going to be fine and comfortable. but below that or above that. Um, and also depending on how much of each type you're having, if you're having much more insoluble fiber, that's the stuff that we see in like the skins of fruits and vegetables, that can help create bulk in the stool. But if you only have insoluble fiber, then you don't have the soluble fiber that can help to soak up the liquid. That also helps to uh ease transit and add and uh make the stool more of like a solid form. So if you have a lot of just the uh insoluble just a lot of the bulk you might still have um stool quality that would be feel a little bit more loose. Now if you have a lot a lot of soluble fiber that can more easily be fermented by the microbes and then that can lead to more gas production and there are some fiber types there are some carbohydrate types I should say that are especially fermentable um and then that can lead to uncomfortable gas and bloating. So ideally you're eating a variety of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes. And so you're getting in all of those foods uh some combination of both fiber types. One thing that is um sort of an insidious source of fiber is the functional fiber added to a lot of health foods and it's sold it's called inulin but it goes by other names most often chory root and that is a FODMAP. So FODMAP is fermentable oligo D uh monossaccharides and polyols which is a really long way of saying highly fermentable um short branches of sugars. And so the inulin even though it's not harmful, it's not that beneficial at really high doses because it can lead to a lot of gas and bloating because it's so fermentable. And there are quite a few different fruits, vegetables, uh, and legumes or beans that are really high in these FODMAPs. And so sometimes when people are um you know making the change to a more nutritious diet or they're pursuing a weight loss diet and they really increase the amounts of these foods that they're eating or they're starting to buy things like um protein bars and you know protein powders, they can inadvertently increase the amount of this FODMAP intake and then that leads to severe digestive distress. Now the next thing that often happens is they try to go look for a solution, right? because they're like, "What is going on? I feel so bloated and uncomfortable." And then in the online health and wellness spaces, that's when they see people say, "Oh, if you're feel feeling bloated, you have um you know, dispiosis, you got bad gut health, you've got SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, u buy this supplement." And I do know of at least one company that pro that sells two different gut health targeted supplements. and one has a lot of inulin in it and then they sell one for like bloating. So, they're literally selling you the problematic product and then you take that product and think, "Oh, this isn't working." And then, you know, you add another product on top of that. Um, so I I do think, you know, even though I don't speak about gut health that much anymore, well, I'm getting excited. I I should start again. Um, that it's it's really helpful to know these things. not just for your own, you know, uh, comfort in terms of digestive comfort, but also be able to spot, you know, are there problematic, um, ingredients in the things that I'm buying and, you know, what claims are people making about something that could be just a very normal digestive process. You know, it's just a matter of knowing, oh, I'm eating a lot of really fermentable fiber. >> You make an interesting point about uh that one company that does both. Um it's good good marketing I guess good uh for them to have the the options available. I'm sure we'll get into that in a bit later. But on on this what kind of what's the difference? Can you explain between prebiotics and probiotics? And is there any use in taking either of them? >> Mhm. So prebiotics are um for example FODMAPs. They're the carbohydrates or um the nutrients that can be utilized by beneficial microbes as energy sources. So microbes can metabolize a lot of different things. Most of them do prefer carbohydrates because a lot of microbes live in very low oxygen environments. And for my science metabolism nerds out there, they're using like forms of fermentation that are very similar to, you know, glycolysis, like rapid glycolysis that we use um when we're engaging in intense activities. These microbes need sources of energy that they can metabolize in low oxygen environments. If the carbohydrates are not available, they can still use things like proteins, but the microbes that are capable of metabolizing proteins are usually not the ones that we consider to be potentially beneficial and some can produce compounds that are linked to um types of gastric cancer, for example. So, what we want to do is ideally provide energy sources that are going to be preferentially used by our more beneficial groups like bifidobacterium and lactoacteria. um those are the ones that we commonly will also see in probiotics as well. So prebiotics are the nutrients for the microbes. Prebiotics really it's not worth buying a supplement unless you do not have any access to fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes. Um you're going to be able to provide the microbes with prebiotics from those food sources. So that's why I mentioned earlier, you know, like even if you're a highly active individual, if your diet is very low in fiber, you're not going to be able to provide enough energy source for a diverse set of microbes. It's like you have a fish tank and you're not feeding the fish like you're going to have a fewer fish in a fish tank. Um probiotics on the other hand are live uh beneficial microbes provided in adequate amounts to provide some benefit to the host. So even though there are a lot of probiotic drinks and foods and things out there, we really have to be cautious about um the way that we are the assumptions that we're making about those foods. um and more judicious about how we recommend and utilize probiotics because there are applications for probiotics. But the issue is a lot of times people think that anything that's fermented is a probiotic food for example like pickles um kombucha I'm trying to think what else sauerkraut. So even though those are those are fermented foods, they are not probiotic foods because the bacteria that are used to ferment those foods, just like we wouldn't say alcohol is a probiotic food, the bacteria that are used to ferment those foods aren't necessarily beneficial bacteria. And most of them are dead by the time the fermentation process is complete. And the other issue is that we don't know how many we don't know the number of live viable microbes that are in that food and to be able to consume enough to get some benefit. Now there are some foods that have been researched fairly well and that do contain live bacteria, live cultures like cafir. Um and there are certain types of yogurts or yogurt drinks like Yakult I think is is one brand and those have been shown to provide some cardiomatabolic benefits in humans. The other form of of probiotics that we see are the supplement probiotics. This is another area that can be really fraught um because uh being sold as supplements. they're not going to be tested for uh purity, safety, and efficacy unless something bad happens. And at that point, then the FDC can step in and say, "Hey, you know, there's problems with your products like we saw with a Fedra, for example." Um, so if you do find a, you know, a reputable brand, sometimes they'll have a third party testing label to say, "Hey, you know, we've at least tested these probiotics for um purity." So there's they're they're not adulterated in any way. Even then, it's hard to guarantee that a probiotic supplement is going to contain the anticipated level of live viable microbes, you know, after it's been sitting out at room temperature for months or years. The way that they set that up is they look at, you know, the average rate of these microbes um dying and then they estimate how long they'll have a specific number of what they call colony forming units. Basically like saying viable microbes alive at a given date. But it's definitely not going to be exact because you know they could be exposed to all sorts of different um environmental conditions. Um but that being said, there is research, there's evidence to support the application of probiotic use uh in certain conditions. And this is not to say that these can replace basic hygiene, food safety or antibiotics. That's not the case. But rather they can be additive. they can be supplementary to improving uh antibiotic associated diarrhea uh travelers diarrhea and some of the symptoms of IBS and IBD and there's some emerging research where they're looking at how they might be able to modify the efficacy of um uh drugs for certain drugs for depression. Now that being said, there is also evidence that some probiotics can interfere with the efficacy of other medications like L-dopa and oral chemotherapy drugs. So just because they're natural does not mean that they are completely harmless. And the benefit that we would get would be uh targeted based on the fact that we're taking the right probiotic for the job. So the effects of probiotics are strain specific and that we're taking them for a sufficient uh period of time at sufficient doses. And the issue there is that we don't have enough research that's done in the same way in the same population with the same probiotic to be able to say this is how long you have to take these and at this dose. Um, so it's to say probiotics are not completely ineffective, but there's no such thing as a kitchen sink like multivitamin type of probiotic that you can take and it just improves your overall gut health. That's not how they work. >> Not yet. >> Yeah, not yet. Maybe one day. Maybe one day. >> Hopefully. Hopefully one day soon we'll have personalized um kind of that multivitamin you mentioned where you can maybe send your stool sample in and they can see what is uh you mentioned the different kind of amounts the proportions and then maybe based on that stool sample they can tell you okay well this is what we found and here take this uh these different things and this amount then that should kind of that actually takes me nicely to the next question is getting a stool sample worth it and will they be able to help. >> It's so funny because as you were saying this, I was going to say that does exist, but there are big problems. >> Um, yeah. So, um, one thing that I didn't mention back then when I was giving you the definition of of gut health and gut d and and diversity is that, okay, so we have mapped the human genome, but the gut microbiome that the the the genome of those microbes is multitudes greater. We're we're looking at at hundreds potentially hundreds of thousands of genes in hundreds to thousands of different species like groups. We haven't actually been able to identify all of the microbes that are present in anyone's GI tract. And it's not just bacteria. We have bacteria. We have fungi. We have uh bacteria phages which are viruses that can affect that it can infect bacteria. Um, we have I'm trying to think of what else. We have viruses that can infect. Um, human cells. So to say that we can, you know, map your your microbiome and then give you personalized advice is as wild as saying, "Oh, we can just take stock of every creature that's in the ocean and then tell you how we can fix the Great Barrier Reef." It's just not possible right now. We don't have the technology available to be able to identify every bacterial uh se species or strain I should say or every microbial strain or the uh equivalent of strain in the various different microbes. And even if we could do that, we would still need to go beyond that, not look at just at the taxonomy, but at the genes uh present in the genes being expressed. And it's be we're we're so far behind that like we're still trying to figure out how can we effectively collect samples that can give us a really good representative sample of the population in the GI tract because when we take a stool sample there's only about a 50% uh shared variance. So 50% of the microbes that are in that stool sample are going to be the same as what you would find in the intestinal tract, but there's another 50% in the GI tract that you haven't been able to collect in that stool sample. And so you get in a stool sample or representation of the large intestine mostly in the the lumen. So in the tube in the center, you don't get an equal representation of the microbes that hang out near the int the intestinal cell wall or the microbes that are in the small intestine. Uh and so when we send in these stool samples, I think it's really unfortunate that companies are utilizing what is actual like these are the the same assays that we use as the same research methods that we use, but then they're marketing them in a really inaccurate um and inappropriate way such that they're preying on people. are taking advantage of people by claiming that based on this very limited and incomplete sample which could have been further dis like uh damaged by the at home collection process and the time exposed to oxygen before it was put in the tube and the tube transformation transportation to take that and then say oh we can tell you which probiotics you need we can tell you which foods you should be eating. um uh especially when you know the the correlation between certain microbial groups and certain foods is very very weak to the point that this company might say oh you should eat raspberries if you say well I can't get raspberries they say any berry will work did you really need to pay hundreds of dollars for a test for someone to say like eat berries it's good for your health you know you could just say without a test we know that me mechanistically speaking that high-fiber foods are beneficial for gut gut microbes and the gut microbiome. Like based on intervention studies, we can say that. But these quote unquote personalized tests are not accurate. They're not clinically applicable. They are not clinically validated. You know, if you go to a gastroenterenterologist and they say like, "Oh, let's do a I don't know if I should say brands, but like a specific test that's very popular where we take your stool sample and then we get your gut microbiome, you know, analyzed and I tell you what to do from there." that's usually going to be an alternative medicine type of practitioner. And the other problem with these tests is that the results that you get look very scientific. They've got graphs with, you know, reference ranges and it's colorcoded, but even those reference ranges are not validated. That's not the same thing as saying like a reference range for your LDL cholesterol. It's not the case. What they're doing is they're taking um your sample and they're comparing it to people who have a known disease. They're assuming that the people with a disease have disbiosis. That's a circular logic problem in and of itself. And then they tell you compared to this person with the disease, you have a more or less similar microbiome and then you have more or less dispiosis. and they give you these ranges of um you know microbial species sometimes without even the subspecies. If you don't have the strain, you don't know how that microbe is going to behave. It's not one type of microbe. It's a a group of different um substrains in many cases. So, you can't actually determine based on that number on that reference range whether that microbe is going to be of any concern to you at all. but it looks like it's going to because it's got like a an concerning sounding name and you know you're in the red range on this madeup chart. Um so yeah, so so don't don't bother. >> Okay. Well, thank you for that. Uh so save save your money everyone. Um for now at least maybe there'll be developments in the area in the future hopefully with AI and everything. Um, >> we mentioned something uh that made me think of uh asking you what are your opinions on greens powders and um yeah, worth it or or not as well as detox anything that says detox detox tea detox. I don't even I don't do those that stuff. I'm sure you probably don't as well, but I'm interested to hear your take on on those two things. No, I've written several articles on greens powders um in the last gosh, I don't know, eight years or so, six to eight years. Um and green powders are essentially just multivitamins in powder form with the addition of herbs and grasses and extracts from um quote unquote superfoods. Uh and because again they're supplements, a lot of these are proprietary blends. Some of them come with the issue of the fact that uh many herbs and grasses are adulterated. I mean from like the the base um manufacturer, you know, because the greens powders companies are sourcing from different areas. Um, and so that can be an issue depending on, you know, the quality of the greens powder, kind of the quality control of the company. So they can contain high amounts of heavy metals, um, which can obviously be problematic if ingested in large amounts. Um, but mostly greens powders are expensive. I mean, po per unit for the amount that you would need to eat to get the equivalent amount of like eating some fruits and vegetables, it's much more expensive per serving. Um the only benefit potentially is that if you are traveling then again you have no access to fruits, vegetables, whole grains and you for some reason don't want to take a multivitamin with you then you have your greens powders and it encourages you to drink water and stay hydrated. But aside from that, um you know, the other problematic thing is that a a lot of the research is very um very narrow in in scope, you know. So they're looking at like, oh, we had this greens powder and then we saw a measurable increase in the level of um you know, some circulating micronutrient. So I mean then okay, that shows us that there's bioavail availability in this greens powder. that's worth something because at least you know that you know when you're ingesting it you're absorbing these nutrients but at the same time does that lead to any like beneficial health outcomes like does does your performance improve? Do we have solid, you know, randomized um control trials where a person is not able to know that they're getting the greens powder and then, you know, something actually improves for them in terms of like performance or, you know, cardiovascular health risk and then to show that that is worth spending the extra money and rather than buying fruits and vegetables um and and whole grains and legumes. Now, in terms of detoxes, those are even more dangerous. Um, I mean, greens powders, I wouldn't say that's dangerous. I think it's just kind of a um spirious use of money, but detoxes can indeed cause severe issues. Um, again, there's the issue of potential adulteration. you know, if you're looking at something that doesn't have um any sort of like purity testing, um long-term use of uh detox products that are almost always laxatives, long-term use of laxatives, especially stimulant laxatives can actually interfere with the normal nerve signaling uh in the large intestine and it can actually create a dependence on laxatives. So, a person won't be able to have a bowel movement without using some form of stimulant laxative. Um they can also cause dehydration. Um they can interfere with nutrient absorption. They are often also going to be associated with other um dangerous weight control behaviors. So you know could be part of a person's uh disordered eating patterns or an eating disorder because it's a form of weight control in many cases. Um, some forms of detox, especially in, you know, the last maybe 10 years or so, um, contain legitimately harmful substances like deleted bleach and that causes severe tissue damage to the lining of the intestinal wall. Um, so, you know, I detoxes have been around for a long long time and I think what is interesting is that they seem much more um, acceptable like depending on how they're uh, packaged. You know, like we think about, oh, how wild is it that people used to ingest tapeworms back in the day? Like that seems so egregious to so many people that that was their method of of controlling weight or pursuing weight loss. But it's not so different to be taking a strong and dangerous laxative um and then thinking that you are somehow, you know, cleansing yourself. Um your your liver, your kidneys, that's what they're there for. >> Well, uh there you have it. No, no need to to get the the rebranded laxatives, I guess, unless you unless you're really struggling. Shame. Sorry to everyone who is at this current point experiencing that. >> Um, you mentioned about So, we were talking about the the different proportions and bacteria in your gut. How can one adjust it? So, you said the testing's not going to really help. is the only way to really adjust to experiment with different foods and also um I remember the quote you're not what you eat but you are what you absorb. Do you agree with that that quote and how can we adjust what we are absorbing? Is there any way to kind of know besides maybe you're gaining weight or losing weight or what are the kind of tests that you can do on yourself to see how well your body is absorbing the food that you're eating? >> To hear more from Dr. Gabrielle Fandaro. You're going to have to tune in again for the next episode of the Muscle Growth Podcast. Thank you for tuning in to the Muscle Growth Podcast. 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