TMGP Ep 46 with gut health expert, PhD nutrition scientist, and founder of Vitamin PhD Dr Gabrielle Fundaro

Oh, another white boy with a podcast. Pronouns Jim Bro. Another white boy with a podcast. You want to see the video? It went viral. >> Hi gains gurus and welcome to TMGP, the muscle growth podcast. I am your host, Rosco, and today we're welcoming Dr. Gabrielle Fandaro onto the show for part two of their two-part series. Today's guest is someone who masterfully bridges the gap between cuttingedge science and the realworld challenges lifters face on their journey to building muscle and optimizing health. Dr. Gabrielle is a leading expert in gut health and human nutrition. She holds a PhD in human nutrition, foods, and exercise from Virginia Tech and is a former assistant professor of exercise science. In addition to being an ACE certified health coach, she's credentialed in sports nutrition, motivational interviewing, and the mesh low FODMAP program, giving her a rare combination of scientific depth and practical coaching tools. As the founder of Vitamin PhD Nutrition, Dr. Fandaro advocates for weight neutral, sustainable approaches to health that empower individuals to align their habits with their personal values. She's a published author, international speaker, and serves on the boards of both the Sports Nutrition Association and the Nutrition Coaching Global Mastermind. You may also recognize her from her work with Renaissance Periodization, where she played a key role in combating misinformation in the fitness industry through evidence-based education. Her passion lies in making complex topics, especially those related to gut health, performance, recovery, and muscle growth, accessible and actionable for everyday lifters. Please welcome to the Muscle Growth Podcast, Dr. Gabrielle Fandaro. From frustrated to fit, the Muscle Growth Podcast delivers evidence-based strategies from expert guests, our gains gurus, to help you build muscle, gain strength, perform at your best, and stay healthy for life. You are not what you eat, but rather you are what you absorb. And with that, let's dive into today's topics. How can you change your gut microbiome? The effects of antibiotics on gut health. Feal microbiome transplants. Elimination diets and their real purpose if any. Fearongering by fitness influences. The lack of informed consent in the fitness industry. Global body dissatisfaction especially among women and men for sure. What weight neutral interventions really look like and so much more. Get ready for a truly informative episode. Quick shameless self-plug. I am uploading consistently on Reps with Rosco on various social media channels including YouTube and Instagram. So check that out for some epic fitness edutainment content. A little disclaimer, this show does not contain medical advice. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the Muscle Growth Podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect my beliefs or the stance of the podcast. While we aim to provide valuable insights and information, it's important to approach all topics with critical thinking. I encourage you to do your own research, consider multiple perspectives, and form your own conclusions. Healthy discussion is always welcome, and I'm happy to engage with listeners in the YouTube comment section to continue the conversation. Lastly, don't forget to follow us on all major social media platforms, including Instagram, YouTube, Tik Tok, and X. Find us at the muscle growth podcast and myself at reps with Rosco. >> Detoxes have been around for a long long time. And I think what is interesting is that they seem much more um acceptable like depending on how they're uh packaged. You know, like we think about, oh, how wild is it that people used to ingest tapeworms back in the day? Like that seems so egregious to so many people that that was their method of of controlling weight or pursuing weight loss. But it's not so different to be taking a strong and dangerous laxative um and then thinking that you are somehow, you know, cleansing yourself. Um your your liver, your kidneys, that's what they're there for. >> Well, uh there you have it. No, no need to to get the the rebranded laxatives, I guess, unless you unless you're really struggling. >> Shame. Sorry to everyone who is at this current point experiencing that. Um you mentioned about so we were talking about the the different uh proportions and bacteria in your gut. How can one adjusted? So you said the testing is not going to really help. Is the only way to really adjust to experiment with different foods? And also um I remember the quote you're not what you eat but you are what you absorb. Do you agree with that that quote? And how can we adjust what we are absorbing? Is there any way to kind of know besides maybe you're gaining weight or losing weight or what are the kind of tests that you can do on yourself to see how well your body is absorbing the food that you're eating? >> Well, fortunately, when we're born, usually um we are tested, you know, where where there's screening for severe genetic mutations that would affect your ability to absorb nutrients. And if not right away, then you know within a few months those types of diseases, those um genetic mutations that lead to the lack of production completely of uh normal digestive enzymes, um those are going to be caught quite early. So if you've gotten to your adult life and you don't have any wasting diseases, um in most cases that means that you have the normal set of digestive enzymes that any human would have. um that means that you might or might not be producing lactase because lactose intolerance is very common, but you're going to be able to absorb um glucose. You're going to be able to break down sucrose and various amino acids. But there are definitely some cases where a person is not going to be capable of that. If it's not caught um you know going later into life then people yeah will generally be having chronic diarrhea you know for years and years that's relatively unexplained. You know the dietary interventions and things don't work. They go in for additional testing and then they find through genetic testing oh you don't actually produce like you can't break down sucrose and so you have this is a legitimate um malabsorption problem. Um now in terms of um you aren't what you eat, you are what you absorb. That's an interesting perspective. I mean I haven't thought about it much. I've definitely seen people say that and yes to an extent it's true because we are made up of the constituent parts like you know the amino acids and the carbohydrates. like all of the carbon that's in our world is recycled and you know we're a bunch of atoms stuck together for a little bit and we're conscious until we're not and then we are dispersed back into the environment. Um but in terms of like you are what you absorb. I mean what you eat the vast majority of the foods you eat contain absorbable nutrients with the exception of you know the dietary fiber that I mentioned. um we are not able to break the chemical bonds that that keep those glucose molecules together whereas the microbes can. So to some extent the microbes that are in your intestinal tract will determine how much as I mentioned earlier of the energy in your diet you can absorb because they can convert those indigestible fibers to absorbable short chain fatty acids. Um the range there is still very unclear in terms of like how much of a difference can that make anywhere from zero calories up to maybe 200 extra calories per day depending on your microbes and your fiber intake. So that could certainly make a difference for a person who's trying to lose weight and the calculations seem to be a little bit off. You know, there's so many other factors that go into play, but that's one to consider. Maybe you have a gut microbiome that is really explosive art energy harvesting and so you have to account for potentially like 200 calories extra um that are available to you and maybe you can't like you know not count the fibers like you can't just count net carbs that kind of thing. Um and then there are things like sugar alcohols um like maltitol sorbatl um very poorly digested if at all and those things can have a laxative effect. So in that case like you're eating them but they're not being um you know um integrated into uh your body's tissues um and in large amounts can can cause >> I forgot to ask your answer your other question how you can modify your your gut microbes. Yes. Um so you can change your species you can change where you live. Um those are are two of the strongest factors in um the the shape in terms of like the characteristics of your gut microbiome. Um age is another factor. Um the uh the like immediate environment like whether you have pets and the microbiome of your uh romantic partner because you share microbes with them. Um, but in terms of the factors that you really have direct influence over that you can sort of experiment with, you're really just looking at dietary pattern and physical activity, then that is probably going to affect maybe about 20% of the microbiome as a whole. microbiome is very stable and even when people lose weight, move to a new country, change their dietary pattern, take antibiotics, in time, the microbiome almost always reverts to its previous state. Now, when a person gets something like gastric surgery, um that's not as much of the case. and and some of the explanation for improvements in um just in improvements in um type two diabetes is explained potentially by changes severe changes in in the gut microbiome. Um but even you know when people take strong antibiotics it might take some time it might take some some months but they are going to revert back to the baseline uh microbiome because it's you know the strongest are we're looking at your genetics species you can't change that um geographic location but that really sets you up um from the beginning and then yes like over time your dietary pattern your physical activity that can nudge certain groups of microbes. But there are theories that there's really a core um or of a keystone set of microbes that determine the characteristics like the the rest of the population. And that is very difficult to change. And even if we were to change that in terms of the taxonomic sense, like just change the microbes that are there, fortunately, there's a great level of redundancy in terms of the functionality of microbes. So you can have another group that steps in and serves essentially the same function. So when people say like, "Oh, this thing's going to destroy your gut microbiome." Um, very unlikely like you you really if you've got a serious maybe a serious like giardia or CDC infection that that goes untreated um you know for the time that's going to have a significant effect and strong antibiotics temporary strong effect. Um but you know we really see like when you're an infant your microbiome is very dynamic. and kind of taking shape. Once you reach toddler years, it stabilizes. And then we don't see that loss of stability until you reach an older age, looking at like 60, 70 years of age. And that's when we start to see um that it becomes less stable and and a little bit more dynamic like the infant microbiome. But yeah, there's no there's no remodeling. There's no remodeling the microbiome. There's no resetting it. The best thing that you can do is if you're having GI distress is, you know, make sure that there's a lot of disease process going on, look at dietary modifications, but like eat a sensible diet and maintain his collective. >> So, uh, yeah, it sounds like you said like 80% of it pretty stable. Maybe you can get a little bit away with exercising and and eating healthy, but ultimately it's going to reset to its kind of default values um, over time, which is very interesting. I think it's a good thing like you mentioned with the antibiotics kind of reverting back to its base state but also um I'm sure that's going to be frustrating for some people to hear that are maybe looking to completely change their their gut microbiome. Um on that you mentioned something uh quite interesting about things probably not going to wreak that much havoc and on that note um fizzy drinks carbonated as well as um energy drinks is the all the hype and the biohacking and that kind of stuff is that not maybe as important as these people would make out to be because I know a lot of top professional athletes that have lots of energy drinks and they performed great their biomarkers are fantastic and their gut health seems perfectly fine. So, is it is the danger always in the dosage? Maybe if they had like five energy drinks day, then it would be different, but just one or two a day and these guys are pretty big and and strong, it's probably not going to affect them that much. It's not going to stop them being like the level that they are. Is Is that what you would say? Or would you say stay away from energy drinks and sugarfree um artificial uh sweeteners, that kind of thing? or what's what's your kind of opinion on that? >> It definitely is about the dose. I mean, if someone has five energy drinks in a short amount of time, their uh heart rate is going to be much more of a concern than their gut micro virus. Like at that point, no, but but yeah. Yeah, it's it's you know, to make the point that yes, like anything in excess can be hazardous, but um we have to make sure that we're focusing on like the right hazards. Now, in terms of effects of um energy drinks on the gut microbiome, there's really not much out there that I've seen recently uh looking specifically at energy drinks. There's some uh research looking at coffee ingestion, uh which is a caffeinated beverage, you know, definitely not as potent as potent as some of the energy drinks. Um but coffee seems to have overall a beneficial effect or in terms of its link to diversity and on overall health outcomes. and it's coffee. So, fantastic. I'm I'm all about it. Um and then looking at artificial sweeteners. Uh now there are artificial sweeteners that are um polyols that are sugar alcohols that are uh fodmaps that can cause GI distress. Like those will have a laxative effect. Sometimes we see them in we often see them in like sugar-free um candies and sometimes beverages as well. um and you know they don't cause damage but again it's something that's going to potentially cause severe GI distress because they're highly fermentable. On the other hand, we have uh artificial sweeteners that are completely non-nutritive things that are um chemically produced that are combinations either you know we have um aspartame is a combination of a couple amino acids. sucralose is a modified sucrose molecule and these are not digestible and in some cases they're moderately fermentable or moderately I should say like metabolizable um I know of aspartane being native to amino acids and there's some evidence that yes some microbes can go ahead and metabolize that but by and large these are not molecules that are utilized as energy sources and so they don't have uh a strong impact on the gut microbiome where we've seen some research that I find questionable um would be in terms of looking at you know the effect of certain non-nutritive sweeteners on insulin sensitivity that was kind of a big buzz a few years ago um and one of the main issues with that is really looking at the model that we're using so in you know a large group of people no one had really any issues with um you know even large amounts of uh super low ingestion. There was a very small subset of people, a few individuals who experienced reductions in insulin sensitivity. So they took their stool samples and they did what we call a fecal microbiome transplant, placed those into mice and then they essentially multiplied the end size because they used like five mice for one person and then said like oh you know a high amount of superlose can be is linked to um reductions in insulin sensitivity. Now, there really aren't standards for how we do fecal microbiome transplants in mice because it is a relatively new um uh research method and it can be really useful. I mean that's part of how we found that feal transplants are so effective for treating um resistant cedificile infections and they can be really useful for um replicating the phenotype associated with certain disease processes but that can really be taken too far. For example, if you say, "Oh, we gave a fecal transplant um you transferred a fecal sample from someone on the autism spectrum into a mouse and now the mouse acts like it has autism." It's a mouse. I mean, we really have to be careful with how we are interpreting the behaviors of a mouse and if there's maybe some researcher bias there to say like, I think this mouse is acting like it's on the autism spectrum. Um so that's where we really run into some of the issues with these studies that are um linking you know specific foods to really alarming outcomes when in contrast we have large epidemiological studies in humans looking at the long-term effects of you know sugarsw sweetening versus non-sugar sweetened beverages or even like water versus um non-nutritive beverages and find that oh there's actually there's no problems here like no one is developing insulin resistance or not developing obesity or not becoming addicted to food and sweets. So that's where we have to compare like what is this mechanistic study showing? Does that really translate to what we see in the real world? >> Absolutely. I I think that study you mentioned um the results were actually and this is not a suggestion. This is just what the results were. Um were that the non-nutrative um beverages were actually better in terms of the health markers at the end of the study than the water. I think it might be because the carbonated um aspect of what filled people up which maybe made them eat less or something something along those lines which meant that they had greater fat loss which meant that their biomarkers at the end were actually even better than the water only. Yes. And sometimes if someone wants something sweet, they have the, >> you know. >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm like seeing that from a, you know, if you want to eat the cookie, take a cookie. But like sometimes if you, you know, if you're like a lower calorie version of this is going to be just as satisfying and that's all I want, then that absolutely makes sense. And that's exactly it. You have to look at like the actual long-term big picture of that. >> Exactly. Like I I love the taste of of Coca-Cola. I know how bad it is, especially the sugar. So now I just have Coke Zero instead. And again, I'm not suggesting people do that. I'm just saying that's what works for me. And it is less calories. So, >> and there's no sugar. And we know how bad sugar is like definitively, I think. >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Y >> um what are your let's let's get into the body sizes, diet culture, all that kind of stuff that you're now starting to focus on. See your face light up there. Very exciting. Very exciting. But before I will, it kind of I think goes along with this now is what are your thoughts on popular elimination diets like carnival or keto for physique um athletes as well as just general pop? >> Yeah. I mean, elimination diets have been around for ever. I mean, they're some of the first were back in the 1920s when it was like, oh, if you want to lose weight fast, just have bananas and milk. Um, you know, and and people will look at the Yeah, exactly. Like it'll work and lose weight. Then people look at those, you know, these diets from 100 years ago and think that that's like so extreme, but extreme diets like that still exist. We are pruditarians, brecitarians. Um, and so there's always been this idea that um certain foods are going to be um inherently like superpowered and other foods are going to be inherently harmful. So like the carnivore people say, you know, plants contain anti-nutrients. They they do, but in such small amounts and only it's only a concern if you're not yet processing them. Like no one's eating raw dried beans. No one is doing that. And once you have soaked the beans and you cooked them properly, as long as beans are not the only thing that you're eating, then the anti-nutrients, you know, the the fi the the um plants the the chemicals that plants use as part of their natural defenses, those are not of concern anymore. They're extremely low amounts. They're not going to interfere with nutrient absorption. Um, one thing that any elimination diet influencer loves is a mechanistic study done in cells or in rodents. That's the best thing ever because you can be like, I've got this PMID and look at what happens when you like, you know, with this one specific um compound in plants and then you take that and run with it. Um, and they are always taken out of context. Um, so that was, you know, the example of the carnivore diet. Now, vegan diets are more often done for like for moral reasons. And I say if you have a moral reason for following a diet, you know, that's your your like level of ethics and whatnot. I'm not addressing that. But in terms of, you know, making claims about the inherent dangers of animal foods, people can also take that to an extreme, you know. So I mentioned that microbes can metabol certain microbes can metabolize um peptides or proteins and produce compounds that are linked to colorectal cancer. That does not mean that any amount of animal product is going to lead to a problematic production a problematic amount of this compound. When we look at like the long-term huge epidemiological studies, we have to look in at that food in the context of the rest of the person's lifestyle. And when we're thinking about things like, you know, microbiome diversity or sport performance, there's so many other factors that go into play besides whether or not a person is eating like this one food or this one food group. So, you know, if it's an elimination diet that's done under the guise of resetting your gut microbio or healing your gut where it's a triggering statement um or you know it's something that a person is doing to lose weight, it's not going to be sustainable. It is potentially going to lead to nutrient deficiencies. Um and even if not, I mean, you know, there are definitely ways to go about some of these diets that are more reasonable. You could have a nutri a nutritionally complete vegan diet. you have a nutritionally complete omnivorous diet. Um I've seen that the carnivore people are actually moving away from carnivore and now we're integrating like potatoes and fruit. So I think you know even like these these really intense elimination diets are almost self-limiting because if they lead to negative outcomes like crazy high cholesterol levels or chronic diarrhea that it it's not going to be sustainable just for those reasons. and they're they're just not a good idea. There's just no research to suggest that that is a way to to biohack your health. Um, you know, and and if it's not, maybe it's going to be benign. Okay. Um, but more than likely it's going to cause some some level of power or some level of damage. >> Yeah. Shout out um Paul Saladina on that carnivore. Uh it's if you if you hear anything from him, you can pretty much just put a opposite of what it is and then there's good information. >> Oh yeah. And the other thing they do is they they really um stigmatize and prey on people who are neurode divergent or you know people who are on the autism spectrum. Like they act like these diets are ways to cure neurode divergence you know and a we don't need to be cured. We're fine. Thank you. B like to say or you know that it's going to be able to cure depression. You're encouraging someone to stop the use of their medication without consulting their doctor because they think that like your elimination diet can cure them. You are responsible for whatever harm comes to that person. Like I I find that repugnant. >> Shout out uh Eddie Abu on that one. Awesome. >> Oh no. And these guys have big platforms. They have very big platforms and they influence a lot of people and some of the stuff they say is absolutely correct. Like Eddie's saying about eating more whole foods. It's probably a really good idea um in general, but not to just go fearongering like he does, like Paul does. And the fearongering needs to stop. Um like I think that'll probably take us quite nicely onto the next kind of topic. Um like fearongering, diet, that kind of thing. this culture that we have currently, body dysmorphia. I'm sure you're very passionate about all these things. So, well, let's go. Let's go. What do you want to say about the current diet culture, body sizes, not using um physique and aesthetics to kind of uh judge yourself every day, maybe using different metrics and the harms and all of that thing, body positivity, your the floor is yours. Just just go for it. I can I can monologue like I have been. Um, you know, I think one way to segue would be the concept of informed consent, which is seriously lacking in the health, fitness, and wellness space. Now, when a person goes to the gym, they sign up for a personal trainer, they start playing a sport, they sign a waiver, at least in in the states and like I live in Colombia now, like you sign a waiver to say, "I understand the risks of engaging in this activity. You're not liable. Now I can make an informed choice." Like, "Oh, I could break my leg doing this." Well, okay. You know, maybe I didn't know that before. But when it comes to these interventions, whether we're talking about starting a supplement or we're talking about um doing an elimination diet or a detox, there is no informed consent. We're not given the, you know, maybe there's potential benefits. Okay, I'll give you that. But like we're not given the potential risks. It's sold as something that is, oh, it's natural. It's always based on like logical fallacies. it's natural or I have abs and I use this. So, you know, we're not given enough information to make informed decisions and sometimes it's really difficult to give an informed decision to to provide informed consent because it's difficult to access and understand all the information that would be required in able to in order to provide that informed consent. Now the area that I focus on specifically talking about informed set is intentional weight loss and that is whether it's for health purposes or I should say health focused purposes or appearance focused purposes. I have said for years that intentional weight loss is like a contact sport. It is like any sort of high-risk endeavor and we need to know the potential risks and realities in order to provide informed consent to pursue this activity. But because of our long history of a belief that smaller and thinner is better and weight loss is always healthy and people in large bodies are supposed to want to lose weight because why would you want to exist in a large body and especially here in the states if you're in a large body you're not performing your civic duty. You're not showing up and providing to uh the economy like you're supposed to be doing. Because of that belief system, we don't view intentional weight loss as risky or harmful. We say, "Of course, you would want to lose weight. If you lose weight, you're going to be happier, more successful, you're going to feel better about yourself." And we don't actually know even the risks about sourcing our self-confidence from our appearance. Because it all seems like a logical good idea. It's like the scientific responsible thing to do because we also all have a duty to support our health and to maintain our health because we're all potentially sick. And once one of us becomes sick, then we are not seen as valuable contributors to society. And if a person is in a large body, there is an automatic assumption that that person is not healthy and that they have a responsibility, a moral responsibility to pursue health and to improve their health by losing weight regardless of the obstacles that might be standing in their way. And we see these messages when people say we all have the same 24 hours in a day or when they assume that people are large bodies or people who have a lower income are that way because of a series of poor decisions. That is a huge issue that is harmful to everyone. It's especially harmful to people in large bodies, but it's something that affects our own self-image across whatever range of body size. Body dissatisfaction is especially strong in women, but it is a universal disturbance. People don't like the way that they look in their bodies. They feel inadequate. They feel ashamed. They feel anxious. There is a real fear attached to weight gain. There's a fear attached to losing one's physique. There's a fear attached to the sessation of healthpromoting behaviors because we think we know that we're going to be judged by others in society because they're going to look at us and say, "You're lazy. You're making bad decisions. You're not working hard enough. You just have to want it bad enough. No excuses." And that harbors the coach and client dynamic as well. It interferes with our ability to effectively help people actually pursue well-being and flourish. It keeps people stuck in cycles of disordered eating and body dissatisfaction for sometimes like their whole lives. And it makes people really resistant to weight neutral approaches. It makes people immediately doubt the possibility that someone could utilize their internal signals to decide what they're going to eat and to navigate a world that yes is trying to sell us a lot of really delicious hyper palatable foods. It makes people reliant on external controls and and and compulsively macrotracking even to the point that it is damaging quality of life because they're afraid that if they stop they're going to fall off the rails because that's what they've been told. And even though there's a really large strong body of evidence supporting the effectiveness of weight neutral interventions and we have plenty of evidence to show us that weight loss recidivism is extremely high that people will regain if not gain more than what they initially lost within 5 years. That there are harms and risks associated with weight cycling. that intentional weight loss, especially when it's an appearance focused pursuit, is damaging to one's body image, even though they like the way they look more, these nuances are completely lost. And when people immediately shut their ears to that, we can't move forward as an entire industry. And on the other side of that, we do have people that want to say that any weight lo like that that you know having a higher body weight is not associated with any health risk at all. And that is also it's scientifically inaccurate. We have to be able to have nuance conversations with each other and not be yelling from opposite ends of the spectrum. And we have to understand why it is that we have the beliefs that we have and why we are so resistant to the suggestion that another very different approach could be just as if not more effective for our overall health and wellbeing. >> Absolutely. I I completely agree with you um on the the potential negative effects of especially the the weight the weight loss um and needing to be more nuanced. But at the same time, I think it's important to create a distinction between fat loss and weight loss. Um and I think that's often missed. Um and like you mentioned yo-yoing where you lose a lot of weight and you gain a lot more. That's also like you said that's super dangerous and super bad for your health. And there are I think like you mentioned that doing things sustainably is definitely important but at the same time I don't think you're suggesting that someone that's morbidly obese doesn't try and lose some fat as well. I think I don't want anyone to listen to this podcast. Okay, I I've been validated now. I don't need to lose any weight or any fat mass because here's a doctor telling me that it's actually not that important. Right. H I want to add some nuance to that. I want to clarify. I am not saying that there is no health risk associated with having excess body fat. There are health risks associated with that. In the same way that there are health risks associated with a sedentary lifestyle or with eating a diet that's very high in processed foods, drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes. There are health related effects. uh there are health associated risks associated with with all of those behaviors with all of those states. What I am saying is that it is not helpful for us to shame individuals or to assume that they should be getting healthier or to apply some moral responsibility such that we judge them or are uncomfortable with people who choose to be in large bodies. There is no reason to attach morality to health. And so I am saying if you choose not to lose weight having learned about the potential health effects, that is your decision. And I'm not going to shame you for that. In the same way that if you choose to drink alcohol, as long as you're not getting in a car, you're not out there driving drunk. If you're in your own home and you're drinking alcohol and you're drinking enough alcohol to potentially cause harm to your health, you know that there's harm associated. You know that there's a risk associated. You're making then an informed decision. The issue with utilizing shame and judgment is that while those can um affect change, affect societal change, they're more effective at in inciting people to hide behaviors. And even if they can initiate a behavior change, they're ineffective for long-term behavior change maintenance. The other thing is when we can give pe when we can expect when we can respect people's bodily autonomy and say you don't need to lose weight. I respect that you respect your body and that you appreciate your body's functionality and that you like and respect yourself as a human being regardless of your size. That's actually a much more effective environment for inviting people to make health rellated behavior changes if they want to. But to say that it's impossible or it's wrong for a person to enjoy living in a large body, of course that's going to lead to defensiveness. Of course people are not going to be open to hearing what you have to say because a you're judging them. B, you are acting like you are concerned about their health, but you're also contributing to the weight stigma that is harming them. And C, they actually don't owe you anything. >> Absolutely. No, I I completely agree with not shaming people and not judging. Definitely agree with all of that and people being comfortable. That that's great. But at the same time, I think it is problematic when uh people are basically saying that they what they're doing trying to promote an unhealthy uh diet or an unhealthy uh thing that they do, for example, alcohol. If someone's saying that the reason that they have such a great life is because they drink so much alcohol and it makes them so healthy, then that's as as you would say that's false and they shouldn't be promoting that way of living. I think the same with if someone's binge eating McDonald's every day um and they're promoting that as a healthy solution to live, uh we know that that that's probably going to not be what most people would would consider healthy. So, I think it's important that that people live the life that they want to. And if they're happy doing that, brilliant. And if they love binge eating every day, that's great. But they shouldn't then promote that lifestyle as being healthy, for example, because because we know it's not. >> Yeah, I think that's an interesting perspective and I would have to I think one like one parallel we can look at would be like the eating disorder community like they are actively promoting disordered eating. Yes. Now, if a person in a large body is engaging in physical activity, is eating a nutrient-dense diet, is not drinking, is not smoking, and they say, "I'm fine in this body. I'm in a big body and I'm engaging in healthpromoting behaviors." That's where I think we get we can kind of get our wires crossed when we say, "Well, that person's in a large body. Is that person then promoting unhealthy behaviors? Or is that person promoting an inclusive environment where people in large bodies also can engage in healthy behaviors and eat nutrient-dense foods and be happy with themselves even though they're not intentionally losing weight because weight is not a behavior. It's an outcome that's affected by many different factors. And that's really the difference between a weight neutral versus a weight focused intervention. weight neutral interventions can potentially lead to weight loss, but we're just not measuring it. So, I think we have to be careful about saying that a person in a large body is intentionally promoting unhealthy behaviors if we're saying that the unhealthy behavior is existing in a large body because that's not really a behavior that they're promoting. Like they could if a person in any type of body like you said is saying like, "Oh, you know, I I only eat raw meat. I only, you know, I drink tons of alcohol. I smoke cigarettes every day. Body size in that case doesn't matter. It really is the concern about that person's behaviors. So, I think it's important that we separate a person's body size from what they are actually promoting and the behavior of body appreciation and body functionality that supports a body a positive body image. And a positive body image is protective against the negative effects from social media, from body dissatisfaction. It's protected and it helps people to not develop eating disorders and not develop in and not engage in other unhealthy weight control practices. So in that respect, if a person is in a large body and they're promoting body image acceptance and body uh you know uh body image flexibility, these these factors that are a part of positive body image, they really are promoting overall healthy mental health supported behaviors. We can separate that from whether they might be promoting other unhealthy behaviors. But if we don't know what that person is doing in their lives and we don't see what behaviors they're engaging in, we really can't make assumptions about that based on their body size. Does that make sense? Like I I really want to separate that a person. Yeah. Being in a large body, that person is not saying like um everyone should be in a large body. That person is saying, "We all deserve respect and kindness and bodily autonomy as sentient human beings, and I don't have to shrink my body to fit your standards or your beauty ideals. I'm living my life in a way that feels good for me." We don't know all the behaviors that person is engaging in. But if we say, "Hey, you know, positive body image is overall incredibly protected. is much more protected than pursuing appearance related weight loss goals. We could say the people that are promoting uh appearance related weight loss goals without integrating things like protective um body image work and psychological flexibility. They're also promotable behaviors that could be harmful to people because they are promoting appearance focused weight loss without any protective factors in place and without providing a person the informed consent to uh you know the information to be able to provide informed consent. In the same way that if a person in a large body were to say there are no health risks associated with having increased body fat that would also be incorrect and that would be promoting misinformation and harm as well. So, we can promote harm at whatever body size. It really is about what we're recommending that people do and why. >> Absolutely. And I think you made the the exact point that I was trying to make very nicely there about when people uh give misinformation or or disinformation. I think that that's the kind of problem that I see with a lot of the stuff I see online, but it doesn't always have to be that. And like I think body dysmorphia is very big because of social media and there was that one case quite recently where there was a girl who competed on the bodybuilding stage in an amateur show and a lot of people are saying she wasn't ready to compete but if you look at where she started with to when she stepped on stage there was dramatic difference and it was an amateur show. So in my opinion and I know I'm going to get a lot of backlash on this channel for it. I think it was it was a good thing for her to do. She did it, I think, for her dad or something. So, there was some reasoning behind it and she just wanted to give it a go and see how it went. It was her first show. Yeah. She wasn't as conditioned as a lot of people, but it was an amateur thing and I don't understand why people are saying, "Oh, the coach should never have let her compete. It's a disgrace to bodybuilding." It's an amateur show. It wasn't a pro show. Of course, if it was a pro show, then absolutely can't step on stage like that. But why do you have to have a certain like they was thinking of maybe having a bar a bigger barrier to entry and saying you can only step on the stage if you're x% body fat or whatever even though that looks very different depending how you know on your structure um in sports. So people also want to consider bodybuilding a sport. I'm not sure. I've played lots of sports. It's it's something. I'm not sure if it's a lifestyle or sport. Um again I'm going to get a lot of backlash for that one. Um but there's no barrier. You can be really bad at tennis and you can still play and you can still enter a competition, especially an amateur one, maybe you can't enter a pro one, but I think that increasing barriers to sports that are very or lifestyles that are very, very difficult like bodybuilding, I don't see why you would not want someone to step on stage. It can also show the comparison that there's someone who's stepping on stage versus someone maybe more shredded or more conditioned. You say, "Wow, look, look at the difference there." Um, and you can see then she can also be inspired to maybe come back the next time and look more like the person. But now you get that experience and that would be a big help. Um, whereas I think a lot of people online bullying her. Uh, I mean it would weak havoc on most people but she seems quite strong and the responses she gives are pretty pretty kind. I don't know if you're familiar with the exact person I'm talking about but it's been quite quite big recently. It's been trending. So what are your thoughts on on all of that? >> Yes. No, I actually just made a real about that that's coming out tomorrow. Cool. Um, and I commented Yeah, I know. I I was interacting with people in the comments section. Um, you know, there are there's two categories of the comments. There are the category of comments that are obviously fat phobic that people just have an issue with someone in a larger body happily existing that way. Like they are taking it personally that she's stepping on stage. And I say if someone else's presence is making is is damaging your pride and your ego, that's a you problem. That's not that person's fault. You are ruining your own time. Stay in your lane. Focus on your own process. Whatever someone else does is not going to negate the effort that you put in. Most of us could train for hours, I mean for for years and never break a three-hour marathon pace, right? Do you think the elite runners care that there are people finishing a race in four and a half hours? Are you like, "Oh, I don't like, you know, I won, but it doesn't mean anything because there are people that rate it in five hours." No, that's ridiculous. All you're doing is assuming based on your weight bias, you're looking at her and saying, "She didn't put enough effort. She didn't, you know, try hard enough." And like you said, they have no idea what her effort was. They have no idea where she started. And if we have a barrier to entry that says you can only compete if you're an experienced competitor, how are the beginners ever going to be involved? Like everyone has to start somewhere. And I have competed in physique. I've competed in powerlifting, a little bit in jiu-jitsu. And at no point I was like I was new at some point. And at no point did I ever look at another new person and be like, "What are you doing here?" No, I'm like, "Oh, awesome. Another person that is like, you know, excited about the sport." And to your point too, her people saying, "Oh, her coach is taking advantage of her." No, her coach did what a coach is supposed to do. He helped her reach her goal. And the coaches that have a problem with that are the ones that are using other people's results to stroke their own ego and they think, "I wouldn't let my client get on stage like that." Really? Are you ashamed of your clients? Well, then you're taking their results too personally because if that client says, "I want to get on stage because my dad's getting on stage." That client didn't say, "I want to compete in pro show or I want to win." She said, "I want to get on stage." All right. That's what she wanted to do. that's what he helped her do. So, I was like I I'm just disappointed to see the coaches in there say I would tell my client though. Well, then you're doing a [ __ ] job of coaching because your client has told you the goal that they have. The goal is not dangerous. That's not your goal. These aren't your results. You don't get to take credit for those and you don't get to take it personally. You get to give your client the opportunity to pursue something that is achievable for them that they're excited about. Go do that. The third thing is people were in there also saying that they were worried that she was going to be embarrassed stepping on stage. Now a if she was embarrassed, why would she be embarrassed? Because other people are being rude to her and judging her. It's not her fault if she goes on stage and she's embarrassed. She feels that way because other people are being cruel to her. That's the fault of the people being cruel to her. So if you want to address that issue, the first thing that you can do is speak out against the people who are saying shitty stuff to her in the comments and say, "Hey, that's not okay." The second thing is, why are you assuming that she is like a a unaware and doesn't have eyes and a brain to process what she's doing? I'm sure that she has seen other competitors and she knows how they look and she can look at herself and she understands what her physique is and she is not so fragile clearly because I've also seen what she's posted. You know, not everyone's self-worth is so deeply rooted in what other people think about them. And to say, "Oh, well, she shouldn't compete." You know, it's not to shame her, but you know, she might be embarrassed. No, that's because you would be embarrassed because you haven't figured out your body image issues yet. Don't project that onto her. She has bodily autonomy. She's an adult. She knows what she's doing. So, that's a an more insidious, more infantilizing way. It's the same way that people say like, "Oh, if someone is in a large body and they wear a bathing suit, like, you're so brave for wearing that." This person's literally just existing in their body. Like, they're not they're not extra brave, you know? like we don't need to be infantilizing because we think that a person should be embarrassed or something because they're in a large body and they dare to go on stage in a bathing suit. Like that is part of the problem that we assume someone in a large body will be embarrassed because they are doing something that we judge to be inappropriate. So I I and I tagged both of them in the real. So I said like her and her coach like you have my full support and to the other people that are leaving rude comments like what in the world like who raised you to speak to people like that? It was just just disappointing. And like to the people that say you know she's doing a disservice to this to the sport, she's being disrespectful. No, she's not. She's competing. Anyone is welcome to compete. Her level and anyone's level of effort and preparation that's going to determine how they place. But everyone is welcome to compete. And the thing that does a disservice that shows disrespect is actually your disrespect. You are misrepresenting the bodybuilding community. Like the vast majority of people are so welcoming and so friendly and you're like, "Yes, I'm excited to see people getting involved and then you have just these haters that take it personally that someone different from them can enjoy their lives." >> Exactly. Haters going to hate, potatoes going to whatever. There's that. Yeah. Yeah, >> it's the same as in the gym. Like everyone's very thinks it's a massive barrier to entry. You go in there super skinny or super overweight or whatever the case may be and you think Jeepers are never going to look like these guys and maybe you won't, but they also at one stage probably maybe not some of them are just different, you know, but majority of the guys that are super jacked, super in shape or and guys and girls I mean by guys um started somewhere. everyone everyone started somewhere and often times you you'd be very surprised that maybe you actually start further along than some of the pros started um but maybe they've just been on the journey for 15 years and you're in your first 15 months and you expect to be where they are and in yeah it's a it's a very negative cycle but actually in the gym the culture is so nice or it depends on the gym I guess but a lot of the times those big jack guys are more than happy to help more than happy to give advice and sometimes freely offer and say, "Hey, you you should hold it more like this or slow down the tempo or whatever." And it's really quite quite nice. Um quite refreshing, especially when you have that expectation of, "Oh, that's a scary looking person. I don't want to I don't want to be within six feet of them cuz I might, you know, have a confrontation that you're not so comfortable with." But um like you said the bodybuilding a lot of the comments from the top guys from the pros that are actually good they're very encouraging. They see they also looked at what the base was and they're like she did did well in for herself. Obviously not well in comparison to maybe the other people but she did really well for her own ability and the next time will be better and etc etc. ways a lot of people if she's not strong minded and strong willed which I'm sure she is like you said she has eyes has a branch she probably will do it again and do even better but yeah I think uh in closing do you have anything you want to say or can I give you the kind of closing script >> well I really appreciate the conversation I think that it's been so cool to talk talk about you know so many different aspects and have like different but overlapping perspectives so I appreciate it and yeah I'm ready for the next question >> so the the last question is what advice or parting words of wisdom do you have for our listeners who are looking to embark on their own journey of muscle growth, gut health, and general mental well-being? It's going to be more sustainable and more enjoyable and much healthier if you make sure that it's coming from a place of appreciating yourself and respecting yourself and liking yourself and that you're not expecting that an external change is going to change your whole life, your whole world um or your sense of self-worth. And if it does, be careful because you want to make sure that the way you feel about yourself isn't contingent on how you look in the mirror. >> Absolutely. No, I I I I can I can relate though. Um because you definitely do have that feeling of oh my word, I've put in all this effort and I still look kind of average. But I guess that's that's social media and that's something that everyone has to kind of learn to to love about themselves is how they look. the body is doing a lot more than just, you know, surviving. It's or it surviving is a lot and people don't really realize the amount of effort that your body is going through to to keep you alive. So, just be super grateful and thankful for waking up each day is really the the message to take home, I think. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time. All the best and excited to see that post and uh yeah, continue with the amazing research. anything cool we can look forward to? >> Uh yes, I am writing a book. I'm halfway through it now, so it should be out um in March. It's called Beyond the Scale. Um the working title uh it's either going to be wellness coaching uh in a weight obsessed world or authenticity wellness in a weight obsessed world. Um and it talks about the whole history of diet culture the last hundred years. talks about uh weight stigma and the social justice movements associated with uh weight and and body size and talks about um a riskmanagement approach to intentional weight loss. And then a really comprehensive framework of how we can help people thrive in all the domains of wellness even if weight focus is a goal. And um I plan on it being a I hope it's one of the most comprehensive um books out there because I talk about both the risks and benefits of high body weight and uh intentional weight loss in in a way that um does I hope credit to uh both sides so it can be nuanced and balanced and people making board decisions. >> Wow. I look forward to it. Please, let me know when it's out. And then um we should have probably talked about a Zenpic and Retro True Tri and all of those things, but maybe on the the next time we have you on, we we'll get into that that deep dive. Awesome. Thank you so much. Really appreciate. Cheers. Bye-bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Muscle Growth Podcast. If you found value in today's episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave us a fivestar rating and a quick review. It helps us grow and reach more people just like you. Don't forget to follow us on all major social media platforms including Instagram, YouTube, Tik Tok, and X. 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